tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post6505882511588504402..comments2024-02-13T02:39:22.756-05:00Comments on EconomicPolicyJournal.com: Where the Koch Brothers Meet the Regressives: On Raising TaxesRobert Wenzelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14296920597416905488noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-2805446311154940122011-07-10T10:51:15.983-04:002011-07-10T10:51:15.983-04:00I thought this over.
Why do libertarians "ha...I thought this over.<br /><br />Why do libertarians "have to" object to subsidies, if it is for poor families? <br /><br />Is it possible to see some transfers, even if redistributionist, as providing an insurance against social pathologies that might occur, if those redistributions were not made.<br /><br />I know purists would argue otherwise...but, just thinking aloud.<br /><br />I Lila Rajivahttp://www.mindbodypolitic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-32751855239240818682011-07-02T16:38:39.883-04:002011-07-02T16:38:39.883-04:00The entire corn based ethanol is an agribusiness c...The entire corn based ethanol is an agribusiness corporate welfare scheme.<br /><br />It should be ended entirely.Redmondhttp://www.mises.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-18676599388313312982011-07-02T03:35:01.241-04:002011-07-02T03:35:01.241-04:00Please note the fuel tax on ethanol is the same as...Please note the fuel tax on ethanol is the same as the tax on gasoline. Because ethanol is a less dense fuel, this means the tax is 50% higher. It's even worse when compared to premium gasoline and diesel fuel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-73011922731467426092011-06-30T21:42:16.452-04:002011-06-30T21:42:16.452-04:00Corn ethanol is outright subsidized with taxpayer ...Corn ethanol is outright subsidized with taxpayer funds by the US federal government. If it's constructed as a 'tax credit' it's the kind of credit where by someone who pays no income tax gets a 'refund'. <br /><br />Not only is corn ethanol subsidized, cheaper foreign made sugar-cane ethanol is highly taxed. The sugar cane ethanol is cheaper because it is a more brentpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-72371467532952746342011-06-30T16:56:04.654-04:002011-06-30T16:56:04.654-04:00As much as it makes me suspicious of myself to dis...As much as it makes me suspicious of myself to disagree with Rothbard and RP, I must on this issue. The income tax is used by the State as a weapon. This is why even net tax-receivers pay it, even though they could just be payed the balance (e.g. the military pays the income tax - I grew up in a military family and never heard the end of the complaints about this or that change). When a new Bill Murdockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05478153132939070354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-79944799110181111372011-06-30T16:35:13.409-04:002011-06-30T16:35:13.409-04:00I agree with the notion it is an exercise in seman...I agree with the notion it is an exercise in semantics whether you call it a tax credit or a subsidy. Given that money is fungible, does it really matter if I get a $1000 check from the government to purchase an electric car versus getting a $1000 reduction in my tax bill? Deductions are the same, but are essentially means tested by income so that they phase out at a certain point - they can Ben Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02993765107497016319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-51828987239847220052011-06-30T16:32:18.903-04:002011-06-30T16:32:18.903-04:00Wenzel, you are wrong. A credit is receiving cash ...Wenzel, you are wrong. A credit is receiving cash against any amounts owed whereas a deduction is against taxable income. <br /><br />source: I'm a CPA.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07006497755171504484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-29600792341528964242011-06-29T13:10:53.277-04:002011-06-29T13:10:53.277-04:00Yes, that is how it seemed to me too..Yes, that is how it seemed to me too..Lila Rajivahttp://www.mindbodypolitic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-80985748954863215792011-06-29T12:12:20.624-04:002011-06-29T12:12:20.624-04:00@Lila
I did see the column. It was also posted at...@Lila<br /><br />I did see the column. It was also posted at The Daily Bell a few days ago.<br /><br />I still maintain that Ron Paul, Prof Wenzel, and Murray Rothbard are wrong on the tax credit issue. As I have demonstrated above all tax credits are subsidies because the government is depositing funds into your tax account. These funds must come from either; A)income tax you have already paid, Zach Bushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11782987091862301229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-36578996453977261862011-06-29T10:46:19.080-04:002011-06-29T10:46:19.080-04:00@Wenzel
Did you see this?
http://www.timesunion...@Wenzel<br /><br />Did you see this? <br /><br />http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Group-linked-to-billionaire-Koch-brothers-seeks-1445005.php<br /><br />@Zach Bush<br /><br />Did you see RP's column in LRC on the taxes/subsidies issue?<br /><br />I couldn't quite make out where he stood on EITC, for example.<br /><br />It looks like a subsidy to me, but he mentions credits to Lila Rajivahttp://www.mindbodypolitic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-68725288188765996322011-06-28T09:41:00.173-04:002011-06-28T09:41:00.173-04:00@Matt M
"From how I understand how the blend...@Matt M<br /><br />"From how I understand how the blenders are using this is they are passing the benefit onto consumers to lower ethanol pump price. So removing this tax credit/subsidy is just going to raise prices."<br /><br />Taxes increases cannot raise prices. Prices are determined by utility scales of the producer and consumer. Because a business will always be offering prices at Zach Bushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11782987091862301229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-74546293092336103902011-06-28T09:35:00.654-04:002011-06-28T09:35:00.654-04:00@Prof Wenzel
All tax credits are subsidies. You h...@Prof Wenzel<br /><br />All tax credits are subsidies. You have yet to address the point I raised how taxes are actually calculated. To demonstrate again I will use a standard accounting analysis.<br /><br />When you pay taxes you are paying into an account at a tax bank. Your debits, or liabilities, are determined by adjusting your income by subtracting and deductions and allowances. This is Zach Bushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11782987091862301229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-76772789951797476712011-06-27T22:55:51.075-04:002011-06-27T22:55:51.075-04:00The fact that this thread of posts has so much dis...The fact that this thread of posts has so much discussion just shows how tax-credits, subsidies, deductions, whateveryoucallthem distort the market. <br /><br />The obvious answer is to eliminate taxes, but that's a glib statement in the face of reality.<br /><br />ANY reduction of taxes is good, but let's consider another example. (wow, trying to think of a non-controversial topic- beer,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-61007089122577530972011-06-27T22:34:45.893-04:002011-06-27T22:34:45.893-04:00I will take the Kochs over the Wenners of the worl...I will take the Kochs over the Wenners of the world any day.Lila Rajivahttp://www.mindbodypolitic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-42896571555951996892011-06-27T21:38:36.247-04:002011-06-27T21:38:36.247-04:00@Jule Herbert
The EITC and "ethanol tax cred...@Jule Herbert<br /><br />The EITC and "ethanol tax credit" are both a combination of a tax reduction and a subsidy. There is nothing wrong with the tax reduction part of these programs.<br /><br />If you get people to object to "tax credits", they will object to real tax credits and otherwise, such as you are. It's an odd place for the Koch brothers to take a stand.Robert Wenzelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-13240531433387694422011-06-27T20:01:43.500-04:002011-06-27T20:01:43.500-04:00The government's murky, intentionally obfuscat...The government's murky, intentionally obfuscatory language has so confused people that they don't understand the difference between a tax credit (less taxation) and a subsidy (welfare in another name)!Nathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-12974717501205355372011-06-27T19:26:47.674-04:002011-06-27T19:26:47.674-04:00A true tax credit is a reduction in taxes otherwis...A true tax credit is a reduction in taxes otherwise payable. What is called a "refundable tax credit" means that if the tax credit reduces the tax owed to a negative dollar figure, the government sends the "taxpayer" (or, rather, "tax-eater") the difference. The EITC and apparently the ethanol credit is a refundable credit and the Kochs are correct in opposing themJule Herberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010275785788333723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-31549151428914697442011-06-27T17:26:07.830-04:002011-06-27T17:26:07.830-04:00@Matt M.
True, so my argument is to expand the ta...@Matt M.<br /><br />True, so my argument is to expand the tax credit part of the bill and call for the elimination of subsidies.Robert Wenzelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-89666922881691747252011-06-27T17:01:00.013-04:002011-06-27T17:01:00.013-04:00I think the law could be either a credit or a subs...I think the law could be either a credit or a subsidy. <br />Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC)<br />An ethanol blender that is registered with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) may be eligible for a tax incentive in the amount of $0.45 per gallon of pure ethanol (minimum 190 proof) blended with gasoline. Only entitles that have produced and sold or used the qualified mixture as a Matt Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-22857648544679651902011-06-27T16:27:42.160-04:002011-06-27T16:27:42.160-04:00@Daniel
A deduction is different from a tax credi...@Daniel<br /><br />A deduction is different from a tax credit. A deduction is reducing your income that can be taxed. There is nothing wrong with deductions.<br /><br />A tax credit as defined by Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law is a reduction in taxes owed.<br /><br />To the degree a tax credit is what it is considered in general terminology. It is a reduction in a tax. And should be Robert Wenzelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-18211699250518915342011-06-27T15:57:02.693-04:002011-06-27T15:57:02.693-04:00Zach is correct about tax credits versus tax deduc...Zach is correct about tax credits versus tax deductions. The ethanol tax credits are tax credits, not deductions. The renewable fuels association has provided this helpful page about how the ethanol tax credits work: <br />http://www.ethanolrfa.org/pages/federal-tax-incentives-veetc<br /><br />Note that the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit is a refundable tax credit and people will get a Daniel https://www.blogger.com/profile/10989420406233432780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-15893644575116098122011-06-27T15:34:59.526-04:002011-06-27T15:34:59.526-04:00It looks like the EITC credit is NOT a credit then...It looks like the EITC credit is NOT a credit then, but a subsidy.Lila Rajivahttp://www.mindbodypolitic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-64321978713776494842011-06-27T14:56:02.957-04:002011-06-27T14:56:02.957-04:00Here is the definition of a tax credit from Merria...Here is the definition of a tax credit from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law:<br /><br />Function: noun <br />: an amount that may be subtracted from the sum of tax otherwise due and that is distinguished from a deduction applied to gross income in the calculation of taxable income<br /><br />http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tax+credit<br /><br />There is nothing that I can object Robert Wenzelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-84545149543166745942011-06-27T14:37:17.793-04:002011-06-27T14:37:17.793-04:00@RW
Yes, you're right but I'm too tired t...@RW<br /><br />Yes, you're right but I'm too tired to defend myself from the ensuing attacks on "heartless right-wingers"..Lila Rajivahttp://www.mindbodypolitic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3758330678390419129.post-33213382959253836502011-06-27T14:31:17.192-04:002011-06-27T14:31:17.192-04:00@Lila
I do object to assitance by the government ...@Lila<br /><br />I do object to assitance by the government to low income families.<br /><br />As far as the rest, see my above comment regarding tax credits,as long it is a credit (in terms of a credit against tax laibilities) rather than a subsidy being called a tax credit, I am for it.Robert Wenzelnoreply@blogger.com