Monday, July 20, 2009

Shock: Inside the Healthcare Bill

Following the mad recommendations of Peter Singer made in NYT's Sunday magazine, it pays to take a look at what is actually in the healthcare bill.

It's worse than you can possibly imagine. Somehow, it manages to be Singer on steroids. Who wrote this bill? It has Singer's footprints all over it.

Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)


Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!


Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same

PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage

Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs

Here's the full Health Care bill that sits in the House.


UPDATE: Shock: Inside the Healthcare Bill, Part 2 is now up.

209 comments:

  1. What do you want to bet our traitorous bought off whore so-called "representatives" have not even read the evil bill. This may be the final tripping point that sets off the upcoming revolution, which is bound to occur.

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  2. If you're going to do a post like this, use English. I used to know a guy who ran several anti-bush pages and I told him "It's got some good information but the 50 images at the top of bush and a monkey are plain dumb". Learn to make a convincing argument in as few words as possible.

    Everyone knows the health care bill is a sham; the reason congress is pushing it is for old people who've lost their savings due to this governments lack of oversight can no longer afford their own health care and since they also won't get the same volume of dollars back in social security, they're screwed.

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  3. @ Annonymous2

    The entire point of this post is the live comments made on Twitter has Fleckman reads the health care bill.

    That is why it is in the format it is, as Wemzel says, it is a compilation of those tweets. That's how they write tweets. If you want a flowing article click on the link associated with "mad recommendations of Peter inger."

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  4. I question the credibility of Fleckstein's comments.

    For example, Fleckstein writes, " Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!! " Reading those lines of the bill, one finds discussion of limitations of the costs the insured must pay for coverage, but nothing that implies limitations of benefits to the insured.

    Limitations of benefits may be specified or implied elsewhere in this bill, but they don't seem to be addressed in the lines specified by Fleckstein. It appears that Flecksteins notes may be based in something other than reality.

    Just for the record... I am not in favor of government-administered healthcare, nor of this bill. However, neither am I supportive of publicly-shared misrepresentations of this bill. In crisis, as in all times, truth is our best ally.

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  5. One forgotten item--all employers will have to cough up 7-8% of wages paid to employees. America will be bankrupt/Like Canada---100's of thousands folk into Canada for major free care. Worse,there is 32million health cards just floating in Ontario.Stolen health cards are $20,000 on the street. USA will be come--little India :^(

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  6. @ Paul Siemsen

    That particular paragraph is pretty hazy and not the best example, but there are other sections where it is clear rationning is coming.

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  7. @ Paul Siemsen

    See pages 335 to 339 where the rationning is stated in a much clearer fashion.

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  8. @ Tommy C

    Thanks for the specific reference. Clearly, rationing is spelled out. It is, of course, inevitable that the plan use rationing to keep costs contained. It seems that all current health insurers have adopted their own "rationing" techniques to that end.

    I don't doubt the rationing, just the credibility of Fleckstein's Tweets, which was the point of my original comment.

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  9. Is Fleckstein a dentist?

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  10. You'd think this information would be important enough for the poster to want it to be taken seriously.

    It's hard to take this seriously.
    "Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!"

    I wanted to show this to people, but I won't bother if they're just going to dismiss it as some stupid blog written by a tweeny.

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  11. I don't think you get how text message are written these days. That's all common short hand for texting. And this was done on Twitter--which is texting.

    Welcome to the 21st Century! You will have another 90 years in.

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  12. Would someone point out to me exactly where the fuckwad traitors in DC have ANY legal authority to legislate in this area?

    I'm so f-ing sick and tired of seeing people argue the pros and cons of some particular bill, while not recognizing that it is a state issue, and entirely outside DC's purview. Has anybody in this country actually read the Constitution? Personally, I don't believe that it's legally binding on anybody, since nobody ever signed it. But for those who think it's the "supreme law of the land," don't you think that they should know what the hell it says?

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  13. This fear-mongering. This rationing and price fixing and all the other stuff is already being done by a rip-off bureaucracy called "Private Health Insurance".

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  14. Well, just as soon as Americans let go of their sentimental attachment to the Red/Blue Scam and realize there isn't a dimes worth of difference between the so-called perties, and that 'they" don't represent "us", then maybe we can actually make some change in the country. What we need is a SECOND party. This one party system isn't working. Failing that, a revolution. But Americans are too lazy to fight for anything.

    Welcome to Big Brother Doctor, Inc.

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  15. There will be no "revolutions" until:swine flu vacciantions are mandatory with the threat of quarantine for refusal,and/or the attempt by the feds to confiscate guns(notice how I said "attempt" because they will not succeed).
    Any other insult such as draconian Cuba style healthcare isn't enough to awaken the apathetic overfed sheep in this country.

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  16. A lot of hype here.We will drop all our coverage and pay the 2.5% tax. we pay 10% of income as preimums now, and because of "lifetime deductables" being so high, our coverage has paid virtually nothing in the 3 years we have had the plan!!!

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  17. A lot of hype here.We will drop all our coverage and pay the 2.5% tax. we pay 10% of income as preimums now, and because of "lifetime deductables" being so high, our coverage has paid virtually nothing in the 3 years we have had the plan!!!

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  18. Perhaps it would be illuminating to compare the insurance contract available from private medical insurers with the government plan. As it is now, Americans are at the mercy of extortionists that call themselves medical insurance providers.

    There is way too much waste in the treatment delivery system and no incentive for medical personnel to be cost efficient. Quality medical care can be delivered without this years model CAT scan machine.

    Example....Wife bit by a tick...got the bullseye rash... Looked on internet for correct treatment med and regimen...called in script for med (am a country dentist)...patient treated and cured. Cost? About 12 bucks.

    Average Joe...same issue...goes to the Doctor...Likely charges: Office visit, clinical examination, blood test for Lyme disease, venu-puncture, blood draw and a follow up appointment with more charges. Cost? Got to be several hundred dollars.

    That's a big part of the problem. Average Joe should be able to get that diagnosis and script from a physicians assistant for a few bucks.

    I am now paying $12K plus a year for a $10.6K annual deductible policy as part of a group plan for dental professionals. I would love to leave the plan...but previous treatment for family members would be an underwriting exclusion festival. Give me another option so I can help the economy by replacing my 1997 Plymouth Vogager with a cracked windsheild.

    Last year, we met our deductible for the first time. Out of pocket for medical including premiums, deductibles and co-pays...over $23,000. There went that new vehicle...bought and paid for.

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  19. Please learn how to communicate in complete sentences with actual English words. I can't read half of the crap you wrote in the article.

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  20. I sent an email to my Democratic Senator - Kay Hagan, NC - asking her if she knew the details of the health plan. I also asked her a) if she was a communist for forcing this BS on her constituents and b) if she was giving up her congressional plan for the Obamacare plan. Of course I do not expect her to answer.

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  21. How about the mandantory evaluation of seniors every quarter by a government agent. This should employ thousands for the 35 million seniors. Social workers will have their own buracracy.

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  22. I also am "represented" by Kay Hagan. I suggested she vote "no" on the bill. I then reminded her that many farmers have switched from raising cows and pigs, to raising foul of many species, as there may soon be a need for millions of feathers. My representative, Shuler, was also reminded of the surplus of petroleum products piling up because of the recent price of gas.
    THIS has got to stop.

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  23. To Paul Siemens,

    Thanks so much for your scrutiny. I encourage all people to scrutinize all bills trying to be passed by Congress. I can assure u that nothing is made up in my tweets on the health care bill.

    The pgs and lines I tweeted are a starting point from which you can learn about the truth that I am telling.

    You merely have 2 take time to read the actual bill as I have, to do so.

    For example when u referenced my tweet for pg 29 lines 4 to 16 you'll see that the Govt is going to limit costs for the essential BENEFITS package.

    In order to limit the costs, you have to limit the benefits. Hence, rationing occurs.

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  24. Solution: BHO gives amnesty to all illegals so Walmart can hire them to work in their in store medical clinics!

    Seriously though. Govt does not need to RUN health care to fix it. Perhaps subsidize HSA's (that's health savings accounts for those who ridiculed Fleckenstein's writings due to their inability to recognize Tweet-speak)?

    Insurance companies are certainly their own bureaucracy and add MASSIVE administrative cost burden to the system.

    Return decisions to people/doctors. HSA's married to high-deductible health plans that cover major catastrophies will work to lower costs and return decision making to patients and doctors without private or public bureaucracy in the way.

    For example, family HMO coverage in Western New York State is about $10-12k in premiums (through employer group or chamber of commerce rates). Healthy family=nearly al the $10-12k peed down the drain in premium.

    HSA= $5800 tax free money set aside per year (govt could subsidize based on income through tax credits). Cost of HD Health plan premium= ~$4200/yr. Unused amount in HSA rolls over year on year. Total cost, about $10k, but only $4200 in premiums, rest is patient's money they decide how to spend. Preventive care covered up front with no deductible.

    Make sense to anyone else? If not, ask me to explain what you don't understand.

    Government wont RUN health care, it will RUiN it.

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  25. Thank you for the great Info. If you have ever tried to read a bill you will see how difficult it is. You will be reading and you get a not that in PL 205 sec V par 3 Line 2 add such and such. In the end a 1000 page bill may require you to read several thousands pages. It is like putting together a 1000 peice puzzle with 300 peices in the box and a not telling you that the other 700 peices are in 600 different boxes of 1000 peice puzzles. This was much easier to read than the bill.

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  26. I took the time to fully read the sections described in five of Fleckman's twitter posts. Each time the statements were either inacurate or a gross exagerage designed to scare readers. I doubt that this is the best or even a good healthcare plan. Perhaps Fleckman doesn't understand what is written here but I suspect that the exagerations and misinformation in the twitters in intentional.

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  27. I for one do not like this Healthcare bill. I am on Soc.Sec.,but my wife is not as she is 56. I can not afford a high priced insurance for her and still be able to live on my income. I think we are getting hood winked on it. I heard that the politicians don't have to follow it as they get their ins. free as do the illegals who are draining our economy. Enough i say!

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  28. All those people who mention "government subsidy" need to wake up. "Government Subsidy" means that some of us will be paying for our own costs as well a someone else's. This will mean higher taxes to "subsidize" other folks. The government is totally out of control and "subsidies" are unconstitutional. Where in the constitution does it say that I should pay for my neighbor's food, housing, healthcare, etc.? It says life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It doesn't say you get free healthcare that is paid for by your neighbor. Unless things have changed since yesterday, stealing is still a crime. Anyone who gets "free" anything from the "government", is stealing from their neighbor and the "government" is the mob boss extorting the money out of us to pay off the others.

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  29. Oh my God! This is beyond Socialism and Communism. This is George Orwell's 1984, "Big Brother is Watching You"! Those of us that have done things the right way, paid our bills and taken care of our health are really screwed. This is not the United States of America, this is Obamadome aka the usob!

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  30. brisa says "As it is now, Americans are at the mercy of extortionists that call themselves medical insurance providers."

    True. But this bill does nothing to change that. Quite the opposite: It will make us all mandatory victims of the same.

    This legislation will establish the same 'extortionists' who run those entities - as government officials with extended status and power. They will become the advisors and directors of the government run systems.

    In short, the foxes will be given keys to the henhouse.

    No change, no hope.

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  31. When anything is hazy and left out, assume the worse. you will also notice there are no limitations on what the government can do. It always says what they deem necessary!! That should be RED FLAG #1

    Remember when Obama says something on any given day on making this a better country, its always opposite day!

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  32. You've done a fabulous job of putting this together! Thanks a million.

    WHAT I CANNOT BELIEVE is that there are ONLY 28 Comments that PRECEDE my own...

    This is the clarion call of the details that need to come to light, as many people don't have the time/wherewithal to review these bills in their entirety.

    Here's what I'm doing with this critical information:

    - FIRST and FOREMOST, sending it to my representatives in Congress, SINCE WE KNOW THAT THEY DO NOT READ these bills in the first place!

    - Posting & Linking in my blog
    - Creating single page flyer to hand-deliver to patrons @ grocer
    - To hand-deliver to neighbors

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  33. Your article made me so mad and frustrated I wrote an article for my blog. I credit your site and linked to it. Here is my article for your perusal. "END OF LIFE" counseling REQUIRED 4 SENIOR CITIZENS! @ http://anunlikelyperspective2.squarespace.com/aup2/2009/7/22/end-of-life-counseling-required-4-senior-citizens.html

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  34. Rule #1: Nothing is as it seems. The goal is total government control. "Health Care" is is just a tool to accomplish this end.The Constitution that has worked for more than 200 years is already shredded.Packing the Supreme Court is next.Driving us into Bankruptcy is the objective. Obama's own comment: "...Only the Government can resolve our problems." Thanks to you all who have voted for CHANGE! You've got it!

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  35. Rule #1: Nothing is as it seems. The goal is total government control. "Health Care" is is just a tool to accomplish this end.The Constitution that has worked for more than 200 years is already shredded.Packing the Supreme Court is next.Driving us into Bankruptcy is the objective. Obama's own comment: "...Only the Government can resolve our problems." Thanks to you all who have voted for CHANGE! You've got it!

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  36. Syed Margoob states that this we already have rationing and price fixing by the Private Insurers.
    That may be so, but each year I check different insurers contracts and pricing to get what I feel is the best for my family and employees.
    In the government run policy, I will not be able to do that. It will be mandated and they are going to give me no choice.
    Screw them. This is America still and I will fight them every step of the way.

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  37. Thank you for such a good post. I'll take the problems with medical insurance over this governement death plan.

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  38. All those who voted for Obama's chg can pat themselves on the back!!There are very few Congressmen and/or Senators, who represent the views of their constituents anymore. Believe they should wake up to the mess, that has been created already by"STIMULUS". WHO do they think they are kidding and jerking around by the chains of government control??????????????

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  39. Now Obama has a deadline of August 8th. Yup, that's right, he wants the bill passed in 17 days! Is he nuts? This bill is huge and extremely costly. Some analysts believe Obama may have just shot himself in the foot. ABC's chief correspondent for Washington says the "votes aren't there right now." http://www.newsy.com/videos/the_health_care_bill_urgency Let's hope Congress realizes the US is set up on a checks and balances system not as a follow your leader blindly.

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  40. It would have been nice to see some questions asked directly to Obama tonight of what is outlined here right out of the bill. Everything listed here is nauseating. The best way to defeat this bill is to publicly ask questions about exactly what is in this bill such is what is outlined here.

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  41. Although a very informative article shedding light on this debauchery, I really wished that it wasn't so difficult to decode from twitter to English.

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  42. Not one representative has read the policy! Sounds like it will pass!

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  43. I think everyone should contact their state representatives, and/or anyone who will listen, about this plan, or do whatever we can to educate the public of this. Do something, otherwise this is what we have to look forward to...

    I found this on the official site "describing" this health reform http://www.healthreform.gov/about/index.html

    President Obama is committed to working with Congress to pass comprehensive health reform this year in order to control rising health care costs, guarantee choice of doctor, and assure high-quality, affordable health care for all Americans. The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should:

    Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses & government.
    Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs.
    Guarantee choice of doctors & health plans.
    Invest in prevention & wellness.
    Improve patient safety and quality of care.
    Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans
    Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job.
    End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions.


    If the government runs with this, how can they think it will "invest in prevention and wellness"?

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  44. Those of you pathetic fools that voted for hope and change, well you've sure got it! Obama Death Plan, here it comes. The rest of us..... load your muskets. We'll be fighting to save the Constitution.

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  45. Interesting. These folks really do want another civil war.

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  46. You who wanted Obama - well you got him. Unfortunately the rest of us hard working folks will have to pay for your choice! I hope that change works for you.

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  47. CHANGE? Here it is.

    I am continually amazed at what is taking place in our country and government right now.

    And I am constantly wondering, what do these people in this de facto federal government think?

    That we Americans are going to just let them herd us into government run programs ie healthcare?

    That we are going to just roll over and let them change our whole way of life ie energy use and consumption?

    That we are going to just hand over our personal possessions ie firearms or any other thing(s) that we have paid for and own, just because there are those in government who decide that all of a sudden a thing is no longer legal?

    These are but just a few of the massive changes this government is rushing to cram down our throats.

    But I am here to tell you, that, NO, we will NOT just roll over to all these new rules, regulations, laws or statutes!

    We will NOT enroll in any HMO type or other government run healthcare program!

    We will NOT submit to all of these new “green energy” policies they are trying to force onto us!

    We will NOT hand over our Constitutionally protected right to protect ourselves from the tyranny of an out of control government!

    Regardless of what you believe about the legality or constitutionality of this federal government, which is known as UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, the hard reality is that most of America is NOT going to submit to all of these new “directives”.

    If they continue to push this radical agenda onto us, the American Majority, they WILL SEE a rising up of Americans the likes of which has not been seen in this country since the Civil War!

    And THAT is the “CHANGE” you can count on!

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  48. Just go on line and read the (BILL OF RIGHTS) and you will see so many things that the government does that is trashing our Constitution and Bill Of Rights.It will make you sick. Our Constitution and Bill Of Rights must be for all even our enemies and illegals or it is meaningless. Still no one cares and will never care until their door is knocked down and then it is too late.
    It happened in Germany so don't think it won't happen here.

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  49. I see posts re "use English". I think was originally written 4 Twitter- max 150 characters. Important part is the page & section #. go to the Bill for full write up. I for one am grateful for the leads to the insane provisions!

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  50. First, I must point out that I am not completely in favor of a National Health Care Plan. I personally think that if it weren't for pharmaceutical companies and people waiting in line to sue a doctor, health care costs could be a little lower. Obviously I have nothing to back that up, just speculation.

    That being said, that I will say is that before anyone posts an article such as this, they should endeavor to ensure that the information is factual. After comparing every "tweet" listed here to the bill itself, I have come to the conclusion that this is nothing more than scare tactics thought up by people who fear change of any sort.

    Again, I will stipulate that I am not a proponent of this H.R. 3200 and I certainly did not vote for President Obama. I do, however believe that when attempting to inform others of information, the presented facts should actually be that, facts!

    There is plenty about this bill that does scare me a bit. I was in the military for six years and work for the State of Ohio now, so being a part of (first) socialized medicine (such as you find in the military) and now having an HMO, I suppose that having someone else decide what my healthcare will look like is something I am used to but I do not prefer.

    Personally, I think perhaps that the president and all of the other liars (I mean policticians) should consider focusing on our crumbling economy, an actual fair tax (instead of the crap tax system that we have now), the war or even revoking this cap and trade bill that appears to help consumer's energy costs go up along with the unemployment (since that new bill will put a whole lot of people out of work)....

    Good luck to everyone. With the state of affairs we are currently in, I am sure "it" will get worse before "it" gets better.

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  51. How about posting a translation in plain English for the benefit of those who have not yet learned Twitter?

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  52. As a healthcare employee I've seen costs escalate due primarily to the rate of lawyers suing doctors (why do you think it's called a "practice"?)and winning exorbitant amounts for their so-called 'wronged' clients. Costs are sky high because primary care providers MUST cover their 'a..es'.

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  53. I see nothing about TORT liability limits. This would reduce the existing costs buy reducing the size of the settlements that are awarded in the court systems.
    Seeing how all bills are writen by lawyers they do not want to cut of their own income. Again it is the little guy that is going to pay the freight in this proposal.

    KILL THE WHOLE THING

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  54. Its simple. You (we) don't allow a government institution to be in control of your EDUCATION your old age savings - SOCIAL SECURITY-
    Government controls old age health already its called Medicare. So we don't ALLOW this to happen. We can't allow the Government to control the MEDICAL. They just want the MONEY!!! And CONTROL!!!


    God Bless America

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  55. You forgot one

    p 16 BANS PRIVATE COVERAGE. You may can keep what you have for the time, but neither you nor anyone else can ever get new private coverage again. A loss of your current plan will force you into the public so-called "option"

    Private care is grandfathered out.

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  56. I find it hard to believe there is ANYONE who thinks for a second that the federal government can run ANYTHING better than the private sector (even with all it's faults). We certainly do not need a Washington bureauacrat mixed up in our lives. Take a look at our tax code for some examples.

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  57. Of course it's going to be rationalized. Money isn't free and we all have to share. Illegal aliens? What were they thinking?

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  58. NO, NO, NO! We are business owners in our 60's, we've worked very hard as with the rest of Americans to get where we are. This will be all taken away. This BILL is a HORRORFYING MISTAKE no matter how you read it. With these proposals we're all going to end up living in Mexico and the illegles will benefit from the H.C. propsed.Our Dr.'s and hospitals will loose all commitment of treatments as they will have little compansation as well as limited funds, resourses and time. We have always lived in a FREE AMERICA. If this passes, America will no longer be LAND OF THE FREE! Where are our real choices? What next? MARSHALL LAW? REVOLUTION? Fleeing the UNITED STATES? It appears the Government is trying to limit the poulation by way of health care quality.

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  59. The people in the U.S. have become lazy, apathetic, over weight and ignorant.
    That is why nothing will be done to stop this country from becoming the National Socialist Party That destroyed Germany in the first half of the 20th century.
    Get your (SIEG HEIL) polished up, The NAZI regimen is back.
    This what we get for voting for incumbents!

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  60. Just a thought... Does this plan have anything in it about ambulance services? The vast majority of small community ambulance services are run by the local fire department, 3/4 of which in USA are volunteer organizations. The local fire chief is chosen by the members of the organization in most cases. Since 80% of fire dept. calls these days are for medical emergencies could the Health Czar decree that the fire chief be an EMT rather than experienced fire fighter? Soooo many unaswered questions here.

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  61. If you think government can run a health care system, remember that we already have one...VA. What a mess they have made of that one!

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  62. Here we go again. Someone opposed to the health care plan decides to spread lies about it rather that presenting their argument.

    Pg 22 Discusses a report that the health commissioner will have to provide to Congress. There is nothing about the government audition the books of all employers that self-insure.

    From Pg. 30: "There is established a private-public advisory committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, and premium plans." I suppose you're actually somewhat right on that one, although to say that this determined what treatment you will get is pretty disingenuous. Standards won't prevent insurance companies from offering coverage that EXCEEDS those standards.

    Pg. 29 Actually puts limits on the amounts that family will have to PAY, not the services that it will get. "Please, don't ration the amount that I have to pay! I want to pay more!!!" :)

    Pg. 42 Says the commissioner will be able to set standards that private health care plans will have to meet. That is true. It does NOT say that private plans will not be able to EXCEED these standards.

    Pg. 50 does no such thing. It says there cannot be discrimination except where specified elsewhere in the bill. Section 246 says that there is to be no federal payment for aliens who are not in the country legally.

    The statement about pg. 59 is WAY out there! What it actually talks about the goal of having a system in which doctors can access the health information that they need in order to treat you electronically.

    I guess that's all I'll cover for today. I have things to do. As you can see, it would probably not be wise to assume that ANY of the remaining claims that are posted are true.

    So let me ask you this; When you try to spread outright lies such as these ones, do you feel ashamed of yourself? You should.

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  63. This is not a "Healthcare Bill"; it's an updated version of Hitler's Holcaust! However, in this case, it's Obama wanting to play God by deciding who lives and who dies.

    PleaSe America! WAKE UP!

    Obama must go!

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  64. By implementing a US Government healthcare system as presented in the proposed Healthcare Bill, it would be possible to focus/devote the entire US economy towards healthcare.

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  65. Thus far - I've read the first 5 points - there's not a WORD of truth in this.
    Why do we do this to ourselves? The Dems have enough for us to hit them on without making up stuff the way this commentator does!

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  66. Does it happen to mention anything about tort reform of any kind?

    Trial attorneys donate quite a bit to the Democrat party.

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  67. I have been reading the same tired talking points all over the internet by leftys hell bent on doing obamacorn's bidding.

    The fraudulent comments are manipulative and fake. Do not believe for one second the losers that profess they are against the health care bill, but call this article a lie. That is a common manipulation tool the left has used to sway pulic opinion for a long time. See it for what it is and ignore it. The article speaks the truth.

    I have read the bill and compared the points and it is all there in black and white. The leftys are ramping up their manipulative techniques and it will only get worse. Expect it and you will be just fine.

    The other thing that floors me is that the lefties complain that health insurance companies have already been rationing care. As if that makes it ok for the government to do it!

    This bill is not about health reform. It is about control and shuffling money into the democrat elitists pockets, General Electric, and George Soros.

    This bill is not about helping people. It is about stressing our system beyond it's breaking point. A classic Cloward-Piven technique to create crisis to bring about change. In this case socialism.

    The other lovely thing is the lefties like to complain that those of us opposed to the bill are using scare tactics and fear mongering. Well that is calling the kettle black. The lefties have their own scare tactics too, but the difference is they are lyling. Over inflating the numbers of uninsured. Lying about people going bankrupt from health care costs are just a few examples.

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  68. I'm an insurance agent, and derive approximately half of my income from health insurance, both individual and group. Let me start by reminding those who have used this forum to blast private health insurance that, even with its flaws, it is still the best system in the world.

    Having said that, let me point out that no prior posts have dealt with the fact that agents like me, who provide tremendous value by helping our clients through the maze of plans that are currently available, are completely excluded from the public option. In fact, it is specifically prohibited by law for an agent to be compensated for helping someone enroll in or utilze the public plan option. For those business owners out there who really like their agent, you can kiss them goodbye. And, if the agent can't adapt their practice to make up for the lost revenue, they'll be out of business. You're going to be seeing tens of thousands of agents (and the hundreds of thousands of people they employ) giving up their pracitces and losing their jobs over this (and who's gonna make up for the lost tax revenue when all those folks aren't working anymore??) Remember what Hillary said about agents when she tried to get socialized medicine back-doored onto Americans back in the 90's...I do...she said something to the affect that, "...we can go sell something else, like cars." Well we can't really do that anymore now, can we???

    I don't mean for this post to sound self-serving, but I have to say that our client base is scared witless over this bill. It is a job killing, money sucking, care rationing nightmare that has to be stopped, the agent issue notwithstanding.

    For the record...the cost of the agent-driven distribution system represents less that 2/10ths of 1% of healthcare spending, so to say we're an expensive administrative bureaucrasy is simply not true. And if there are no agents, there will have to be tens of thousands of government employees at the other end of a toll free number (can you say billions for new call centers and government salaries for people with zero incentive to do a good job...like agents) replacing already bought and paid for call centers owned and operated by insurance companies with employees who CAN GET FIRED if they don't do their jobs and do them well??

    I have reviewed the post, and yes, there are some stretches in the comments. I will now read the entire bill (since it's really big print and only about 25-30 lines per page). Shouldn't take long, so I recommend everyone read it...I recommend everyone send it to your insurance agent...I recommend everyone call your congressman during the upcoming recess...many are in town for the duration and will accept meetings or phone calls from constituents during the break (for the people dissing their senator in SC, this is the HOUSE version, not the SENATE version so, no, your senator would not have read this!!). Especially lean on moderate and centerist congressmen/women, as they can make or break this bill.

    I encourage everyone to ask their insurance agent if they're a member of the National Association of Insurance and Financial Advisors and the Association of Health Insurance Advisors. Both of these organzations, along with others in the industry, were responsible for a blitz on capital hill last week that saw over 1300 insurance and financial servcies professionals decending on their senators and congressional representatives. If your agent is not a member of these, the largest organizations of their kind that advocate on your behalf, you should ask them why they haven't joined??

    Best of luck to all of us...hopefully with the senate postponing action on their version until after the August recess, we'll all have some time to catch our breath and get after our elected officials to see that the light at the end of this tunnel is in fact the oncoming train, and we're all in big trouble if we don't get off the track we're on.

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  69. Will someone explain how it is possible to give everyone a national healthcare ID card but not a national voter ID card?

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  70. My fear is that nationalizing patient info database and government control could lead to abuse of power and confidentiality issues.
    What will prevent medical care from being denied on the basis of life style, political affiliation, class,age or race. It is clear Democrats hate corporate America and Small Business which do not rely heavily on unionized labor.
    The Clinton Admin sicked the IRS on its enemies I have less faith in Obama. He seems immature and petty.
    What happens to the industries that develop medical equipment or the phamaceutical industry. Will they be boxed in unable to expand, trade on the stock exchange and earn profits. Contracts with Healtcare Providers could become government sanctioned.

    This is not socialism it is communism!

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  71. I've investigated that claims made by Fleckman, and he's nothing more than a fearmonger. Get your facts straight, buddy - stop twisting them.

    FWIW, I'm not left or right. I'm independent. I loathe all politicians equally. However, I have a special level of disgust for fearmongers.

    I'm also against the government getting involved in our healthcare altogether. However, this alarmist rantings are not helping the issue. Obama needs to be focusing on the economy, and get off the healthcare crap.

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  72. How come everyone who has come in here to slam Fleck's findings claims to be neither left or right or says they don't agree with the health care bill. This reeks of Rush's "Seminar Callers".
    I would add on to what that insurance agent said. I too am an agent operating in NY, NJ and MA. Those 3 states already have forms of ObamaCare in that there is guaranteed issue, limited Pre-X, no underwriting, rates (both new and renewal) approved and set by the state government and we are still seeing 30% renewal increases.
    ObamaCare does nothing to improve this nor does it appear to be designed to.

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  73. I am a small business owner with total revenues slightly higher than $400K; if Fleckstein's comments are accurate, I will not be able to add another employee as I had planned to do later this year. Multiply me times the tens of thousands of small businesses, and you get a quick lesson on the dangers of Socialism and leftist policies.

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  74. I agree with the annonymous poster who says there appears to be something very organized about the protesters to this analysis. They all seem to be neither left or right,blah, blah, blah...but they all are against the ananlysis..very suspicious.

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  75. They can stick it back up their asses where they got it from! It is BULLSHIT! Pelosi-shit!

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  76. How the heck can anybody do this to their own country and fellow countrymen? I have always thought the leaders of this great country were Americans. I have always thought they could be counted on to do whats best for their country and fellow Americans. This is the most tratorist thing I have ever seen or heard of. America, let us rise up and sweep this bunch of scumbums out of power and start over!!!!!!

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  77. What is real creepy....
    Big Brother will have real-time access to your bank account, financial records, and your medicals records will be under government control. Hmm, maybe a lot of conservatives will be denied life saving treatments, like the extra tests that statistically don't help, yet in your case may help.

    Not to long ago the left was screaming about privacy rights. What happened to that?

    What if Barry Odumbo is putting into place his government with this and his other plans, including the Czar agencies that art taking over for the legit ones. He will add his not so secret military national police and find a way to go around Prez term limit and also the election, maybe there won't be an election in 2012. Dictator Comrade Obama, hmmm? It sounds like paranoia, yet ...

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  78. The oldest citizens are the ones who helped vote Obama into office. They will tell you that they vote Dem. because their parents told them to or that the Dems are for the small guy and the Rep are for big business. Good luck!

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  79. You people keep talking about resisting the Government take over of our lives.
    There are two groups that come to mind when you talk like this because they have the audacity to actually do something but we call them terrorists.
    It ain't gonna happen here. Nobody has the balls for it.

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  80. This is what the Bill says on pg. 29 lines 4 - 16. What do you get from it??? He is telling you what is says. He is not lying. Read it yourself.

    4 (A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits package with respect to an individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).

    (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index (United States city average) applicable to such year.

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  81. I've taken the time to spot check some of the points made by Fleckman, and to be honest there seems to be a disconnect between what the bill says and what he is saying. Don't get me wrong - I totally oppose this thing. But Fleckman's comments don't seem to jive with what I'm reading.

    Examples:

    Page 22 does not mandate any audit of employers which are self-insured. That Section refers to a study of factors related to self-insured plans versus fully-insured ones. It looks like the study will rely on statistical data and not on audits of any employers' books.

    Page 29, Lines 4-16 don't ration anything. It places limitations on cost sharing that would be incurred under the "essential" plan.

    Page 30, Sec 123 has nothing to do with any committee deciding what benefits/treatments you will receive. The committee will RECOMMEND covered benefits and coverage plans referred to as "essential", "enhanced" and "premium".

    I am an insurance regulator and I deal with insurance laws and contracts on a daily basis. I have only looked at the first three points made by Fleckman and all three are inconsistent with what the language of the bill says. While this bill is crap in terms of the fact that it usurps private enterprise and puts the government in charge of regulating health care, Fleckman's frantic shrieking (for the most part anyway) seems to go pretty wide of the actual language of the bill.

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  82. This is all the informationn mandated o page 22:

    Such study shall ex2
    amine the following:
    3 (A) The types of employers by key charac4
    teristics, including size, that purchase insured
    5 products versus those that self-insure.
    6 (B) The similarities and differences be7
    tween typical insured and self-insured health
    8 plans.
    9 (C) The financial solvency and capital re10
    serve levels of employers that self-insure by em11
    ployer size.
    12 (D) The risk of self-insured employers not
    13 being able to pay obligations or otherwise be14
    coming financially insolvent.
    15 (E) The extent to which rating rules are
    16 likely to cause adverse selection in the large
    17 group market or to encourage small and mid
    18 size employers to self-insure
    19 (2) REPORTS.—Not later than 18 months
    How are they going to do thid without an audit

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  83. Duh page 29 limits spending that is RATIONING

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  84. Oh yeah page 30 is just a "recommendation". News to you, they shouldn't even be recommending. But if you think it is going to stop at a recommendation well then I have a recommendation for you.

    These are weasel words used by the writers. Obama is a believer in the "nudge theory" of getting things done as detailed by his buddy Sunstein at U of Chicago, just watch how these recommendations are nudged!

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  85. I hope everyone knows what is really happening.The government is trying to make this a socialist country.They have no intention of helping people.Only those who will serve the government in the future will be cared for.Everyone else will be weeded out.Obama is doing the same thing Adolf Hitler did.And for the same reasons.It's all in revelation in the bible.America is the "Babylon" talked about in revelation 18:2.God is real.Pray for a sign and God will answer if we approach him with respect.Time is short.He is coming back!Don't scoff.Just check it out.You will see.Peace.

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  86. I hope everyone knows what is really happening.The government is trying to make this a socialist country.They have no intention of helping people.Only those who will serve the government in the future will be cared for.Everyone else will be weeded out.Obama is doing the same thing Adolf Hitler did.And for the same reasons.It's all in revelation in the bible.America is the "Babylon" talked about in revelation 18:2.God is real.Pray for a sign and God will answer if we approach him with respect.Time is short.He is coming back!Don't scoff.Just check it out.You will see.Peace.

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  87. everyone is a capitalist on the way up and a socialist on the way down.

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  88. What part of limitations don't you understand. This is straight from the dictionary:

    limitation 
    –noun
    something that limits; a limit or bound; restriction: an arms limitation; a limitation on imports. Or medical care for example
    the act of limiting.
    the state of being limited.

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  89. This bill is bad- especially since I am a small business owner and a Christian with morals on how others should be treated. We all can complain all day, but what specifically can we do about it? Is there a petition of greviances to sign somewhere?

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  90. President Obama should be staying
    "at home" reading the Healthcare Bill, one page at a time so he can
    ask intelligent questions of those who are proposing all of this massive government program. He's on TV so often "talking," and mixing into things that shouldn't even be on his agenda; spending the next day disguising an apology
    for previous day's comments; inviting people to the White House for a friendly beer. He's so narcisstic he thinks he's pulled off a real peacemaking event!

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  91. Revolution number II - if this is not done and we as a people continue to sit by there is no reason to live. Why prolong life with this type of alternative. I propose that EVERY drug company worldwide cease and they be CONTROLLED by our 'government' - They have been a rape to all peoples of the world.

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  92. You will not find Tort reform in this bill because the Federal Government cannot be sued. The fact that it is not mentioned leads us to a loose conclusion that this bill will lead to total government control.

    Listen to Betsy McCaughey, the former LT Gov of NJ and now Chairman on the Committee to Reduce Infectious Deaths [Patient Care Advocate]
    http://fetch.noxsolutions.com/ft/mp3/BetsyMcCaughey_071609.mp3

    Obamacare would be half paid for by 550 billion cut in health care benefits and services for seniors. The CBO would only cut 1% of fraud, waste, and abuse of these programs. They are firmly cutting patient care.

    End of Life counseling: On Page 425 it details on how to end their life sooner. How do decline medical care, decline nutrition and hydration. How to go into hospice care [this is a place you go to die peacefully]. And if you get cancer during this time you will be given this counseling again. This is not an issue for govt but for the patient and their doctor. They seem somewhat eager to see people informed in this one area.

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  93. How could any American support this? It is riddled with taxes. What a shock! Now I am very worried about my Dad in assisted living care. I am worried about my children and grandkids. Surely this will fail. If we can get the word out B4 they pass it! I have let it be known that I strongly appose it to our state and govt. officials.

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  94. This issue is not state level, it is federal and Congress does as it pleases because we keep voting the incumbent Congress back. They think they are doing what we want.

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  95. Socialism is alive and well in the US..this National Health Care Bill..is unbelieveable..I am not in favor of this bill..more will come in the future..we're going down the drain..the America we once knew it now fading away..

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  96. So we need to fight like hell to defeat them now and at the polls. Then it will be our time to reverse this socialistic change! Don't give up. Fight hard against these anti-America politicians and the lemmings that follow them blindly. Attend local Conservative groups. Get involved in local politics. I have volunteered to help a state rep. up at my capitol!

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  97. how about posting a link to the bill that actuallly works?

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  98. Sorry, about teh link. That came directlt from the House of Representatives. I don't know why it isn't working. They can't provide us with a decent link to the bill, and they wan't to provide our healthcare!

    If I can find another one, I will posy it at the bottom of the story, where the old link is.

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  99. This is outrageous. The authors of this piece of excrement should be made to test drive it for a year before it's foisted on the rest of us.

    Here's the link:

    http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

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  100. They never do read the bills - they rarely if ever have. They get "legislative summaries" - as do state level personnel and some cities and counties, too.

    This is far from the only "excrement" currently before the House...

    HR 2749... the Omnibus Public Lands Bill, and the there's one for water resources that'll knock your socks off!!

    They want all the land, all the food, all the "nutrients" and all of our personal decisions to go through some federal agency or other.

    Once this is all over, Neuremburg ought to look like a Sunday picnic. These aren't just treasonous - these bills are crimes against humanity and their supporters ought to be treated as criminals of that caliber.

    Sue

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  101. This article is an incorrect reading (on most points)of the actual bill. No one should post comments about the bill until they read it themselves, as I have.

    However, it IS correct that individuals (except non-resident aliens) will have to pay an additional 2.5% tax on their gross income for the tax year if they do not have health insurance.

    It is also correct about the demands and penalties on businesses and business owners, even very small businesses.

    However, the hype and hysteria about this bill ushering in "communism" is ridiculous. If you want to call this bill "socialism," then call it like it is: "CORPORATE SOCIALISM!" It forces everyone into a contract with an insurance company. Therefore, the beneficiary of the bill is obviously insurance companies.

    This bill does not mandate health care or provide "universal health care". It only mandates "universal coverage."

    One of the first results of this bill would be a drastic increase in health insurance premiums, deductibles, co-pays, and a decrease in benefits. The insurance companies, of course, will insist the increases are necessary to cover all the high risk people they are covering (which is bull-crap).

    For those of you who wax eloquent about our glorious private system, rationing is already a reality. What difference does it make if it is government or a private company?

    I have "private insurance" and was kicked straight out of an intensive care unit, without further hospital care, only two days into a life threatening medical emergency. I have multiple medical conditions, and each year I watch my premiums go up, the co-payments go up, the deductable go up, and my benefits shrink.

    The insurance companies always find a way to increase profits at the expense of the policy holder. That is what is screwed up about our current system. Health care should NOT be about profit. Health care should be a service (like education), not a business.

    We need a true universal health care system (like those in European countries) that is not profit driven like ours. This bill is NOT universal health care, or even national healthcare........it is just a big check to the insurance companies.

    The big brother some are referring to here isn't "socialism," but rather what is quickly becoming a corporate totalitarian state. (state subsidized "capitalism" run amok.)

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  102. @Anonymous: go to www.hydeonhealthcare.com. While this is not in bill form it does make for a platform to build one. The problem with the Democrats is that they don't want the Republicans to even speak on this issue. So all I can refer you to is the version that perhaps Sen. DeMint has proposed.

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  103. This man has so distorted what the bill actually says that it is ludicrous.
    Most of what he quotes gives rights to the patients rather than giving power to the government.
    The power of the internet to a voice to people who don't know what they are saying is unlimited

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  104. LET'S SINK THIS BILL.....WE HAVE A VOICE SO LET'S USE IT

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  105. I HAVE to respond to the "country dentist" above with the example of his wife's tick bite. Sure, it only cost about $12 in your scenario, but let's inject a bit of REALITY!! Let's say, wife bitten by tick, goes to Doc, gets script with no blood test, no follow up...THEN gets sick, ends up with LYME disease (REAL POSSIBILITY) and dies. Who you gonna SUE??? The DOCTOR of course, because someone has to be responsible and he KILLED your wife because of his ineptitude. There's you a new car...and house...and vacation home!! Real reform needs to come with the legal system and the ability for people to jump on the lawsuit wagon! Maybe we should just not have doctors and let everyone self-diagnose and prescribe for themselves through the intenet, because we all know the internet has it all! Idiot.

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  106. Joseph A Mulherin mDJuly 29, 2009 at 10:31 AM

    THE REVOLUTION HAS BEGUN; THANK GOODNESS! What we need now is for some trusted leader to pull all the facets together and put a stop to this selling of our childrens birthright away We are selling then into bondage. we are bringing shame to all the men AND WOMEN WHO GAVE THEIR ALL TO PRESERVE THE FREEDOMS WE ATE ABOUT TO LOSE. GOD HAVE MERCY ON US

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  107. I have never been into politics but this is scary!! Everything that I have read I do not approve of. Talk about being a communist this is ridiculous. He wants to control everything and that is not what our country is about. I just hope and pray that the people will see the horrible things that this man ( Obama ) is doing to our country.

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  108. I received this "document" from my very concerned parents. As a registered nurse who worked in hospice care, I am infuriated by the misleading, non factual portrayal of the advanced directive counseling mandated in sections 1232 and 1233 in House Bill H.R. 3200. What is outlined in those sections, including the information outlined on the now infamous page 425 is an important addition to our woefully inadequate health care system. This simply guarantees that all seniors and their families are entitled, every five years, to counseling on what advanced directives are available to them, how to find and fill out the forms, and their rights to determine level of care should their health condition change. Shame on anyone who takes this and manipulates it to scare people into opposing the bill. Please, oppose the bill on your own convictions and beliefs, back those up with valid research, but STOP lying.

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  109. please don't question the integrity or intellect of "Fleckman" just because you don't like the way he composes his tweets or the syntax of his tweets. Twitter only allows 140 characters (spaces included) in a tweet. It's much like a text message; you conserve the space you have through the use of abbreviation.

    This bill freightens me. I'm so thankful I took a law class while in college; it's allowed me to glean some tidbits from this bill that are really, quite honestly, freightening. Call your representatives.

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  110. I can't even find the health care bill. Does anyone out there know where I can go to read the (supposedly 1,000 pages) bill?

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  111. I agree that you should use real English. I'd love to copy parts of it to my friends or congresspeople, but I can hardly figure it out myself!

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  112. Mixed up Muse: You referred to page 425. I frankly don't need any counseling guarentees from the government. I feel this bill is unconstitutional as is par for the course with this administration. I was not totally satisfied with portions of my health insurance coverage, but after seeing this bill and yes I have read the entire horrible thing, I love my coverage. I am the happiest person on earth. I feel illegal immigration reform and welfare reform should be attacked first. Then some if not most of the healthcare problems would resolve themselves. We in my circle of life totally agree on this issue. We feel only those who have not worked their whole lives as citizens in this, the greatest of countries, want this hand out. Sorry you are mixed up. If it passes and I hope not but you might be able to get some mental health counseling from this plan one day.

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  113. In stead of everyone leaving their opinion or thoughts or frustrations in the "Comment" section, take the time out to find out who your state representative is and write to them! And bombard the presidential administration with the same thing. "Comment" is just a forum for complaining. Write to the Senate and the House of Representatives. If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

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  114. This plan is so great that the House, Senate & all Fed employees are exempt. Plus, the GOP tried to get an amendment that would keep illegal immigrants from being insured & was shot down. Why? Well, seems that once they are insured-it will make it easier to give them amnesty & add @10 million new voters to the democratic roster. Then we would be not One Nation Under God, but One Party Under Obama. He also announced the day that minimum wages went up that he would raise it to $10-guess what year...2011-after the 2010 elections. They want all military personel to give them the serial #'s of their personal weapons & where they are kept. This was before Homeland Security labled our vets as potential "terrorist" because they might be upset that we have a black president (although they are still following the black presidents orders) & may not be happy when they come home to see the direction the country is heading. We should all be upset & frightened, but fighting mad. The 33 Czars, if you look into their background you would shudder. Czar of Green served time in prison & came to believe in communism (would the govt hire you with a crimal history? Not a chance, you wouldn't pass the background check), the health Czar believes that if you are not well enough to be a participating citizen then healthcare should be denied-even for dementia. What happens to babies born with birth defects, people that have a genetic disease or suffers a catastropic event that debilitates them. Participants in the govt health care will be mandated beginning at 65 & every 5 yrs after to meet with a Dr to discuss "Dying with Dignity" & will advise you as how to do it. Didn't Kavorkian go to jail for that? Citizens should be outraged at this & we can bring "change" in the 2010 elections. Give pink slips to anyone that supports this bill & plan to join the march in Wash, DC on Sept 12th. Some T.E.A. party organizers are arranging for buses & hotel accomodations, check to see. Voters are the only ones that can stop this power grab. Remember McCaine's slogan? Stand up-Stand up-Stand up & Fight! I do not want my children or grandchildren to live in tyranny. What is happening is not a coincidence-it was well planned before he campaigned for president & is following his agenda to a tee. Think about it-his Czars report to no one but him. We have depts to look after the various sectors such as Dept of Energy, Dept of Health, Dept of Commerce-what is the purpose of the Czars? His poll #'s are tanking, so are the arrogant butt kissers Pelosi, Reid, Dodd & our pal, Barney Frank. This is no time to sit idly by. It's now or never. The network news shows kept key information from the public & the immense amt of $ he raised in a declining economy-who financed him? Soros, maybe? I saw some quotes he wrote in his books & one said that if he saw a change in the direction with the Muslims-he would support them fully. Now, did he bow to the King of Saudi Arabia? What do you think?

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  115. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

    Link to the full bill in pdf form

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  116. Alabama Prayer
    Once it is passed it is a done deal. Fight against it. If you don't understand this, call somone in Canada. They will tell you very quickly how awful it is and how some die because they were not "qualified" to recieve "timely" care. VOTE NO by calling your Congressman, Representative and Senator. And last but not least, PRAY!

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  117. Many thanks to those of you who voted for Obama. He promised change and indeed change is coming! I hope you all are happy with your choice, while the rest of us suffer for your mistake! Enjoy your new gov't health care and don't worry-I am sure there will be many more wonderful changes in store for the American people! Well done!! P.S. The illegal aliens thank you too!

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  118. I am a renal transplant patient. I have been blessed with a SECOND lease on life. Of which I am truly grateful. ANYWAY. By the end of my 12 month transplant anniversary, I MUST, HAVE TO, NO QUESTIONS, take medicare! That's awesome IF, I didn't have health insurance from my employer. Turns out, I DO. Can I say NO to medicare? Sure, no problem. The catch..... If I say no to medicare after my 12 month post op date and I go to get my some odd thousands of dollars per month of medicine. Then my insurance company will deny coverage of my transplant meds stating for the next two years, Medicare is responsible for medication payments. I still get to have my insurance co. take out their chunk from my check AND medicare will send me a monthly bill for approx. $100.00/month for 2 years. At which at that time, my private insurance begins to pay for my meds again. Don't get me wrong. I thank the good Lord above for living a normal life. But holy crap!

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  119. I’d best sum this up by saying that fools can be lead to believe almost anything … if they’re willing and lazy enough. You’d be best served by going to Thomas and reading this bill yourself. Then you’ll quickly find you’ve been duped by a non-english major that doesn’t just read between the lines, but tells his minions whatever best fits his needs. VERY LITTLE of what Mr. Pink Flamingo tells you has any truth to it!

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  120. writing to my rep, Gwen Moore, does nothing....she doesn't even bother to answer. Writing/faxing makes no difference here in WI.... they do what they want to do and they won't be voted out because the sheeple will just vote for the incumbant

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  121. I hate to be a "the sky is falling" kind of person....BUT....
    I love the freedom of our country and respect all of those who have fought for our rights - I was a very young girl when I had the opportunity to sit through Senate in Session and Congress in Session (while Tipp O'Neil was the Speaker of the House)...The topic then was the SALT II Treaty......The reps who actually made a presence didn't even pay attention - they read their papers and joked with other reps while the Session was open........So, reading and hearing all this HC prop. scares me - I feel for Obama he sure inherited a mess and I wouldn't want his job - GOD HELP US ALL

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  122. YES -- you can REFUSE to be put on Medicare and keep your current insurance. These threats are just a way to intimidate you. Don't fall for it. We decided not to take their threats seriously, kept our insurance and never looked back. That was 10 years ago. Hang in there. Just more govt bullying. To the guy that worries about tick bites. My husband got bit -- funny looking faint rash -- doctor recognized it as Rocky Mtn fever, confirmed with tests -- like to see you self-diagnose that, idiot!!

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  123. We keep pointing the finger at the politicians and somehow manage to forget 'the people' (at least some) put them in office. We get what we elect!! All we have to do is to take a look at the Post Office and Amtrak to see how well the government runs a business (lets not forget what a great job they also did with telecommunications in the break up of the Bell System)! When over 80% of the people in this country have insurance and of the remainder, 1/3 can afford it but for whatever reason elects not to buy it (maybe it’s that new big screen TV or new car) and 1/3 are ILLEGALS!! So we are talking a small percentage that 'need' coverage but don't have it, however, leave it to the government to exaggerate that number!! Let the STATES deal with the remainder as they do with WELFARE! Might I ask where all those Democrats who were elected to office got the idea that their constituents appointed them to be an advocate of ‘socialized medicine???' These idiots should get off their rear ends and READ the document that they are so frantically hoping to sign. They seem to THINK this country desperately needs it but they haven’t a clue as to the contents…Hmmm. Unfortunately too many will go on ‘hearsay’ having no ‘first hand’ info…I think we liken them to Sheep. We will ALL pay for their incompetence and indiscretion! What better way for Congress (including Obama) to show they are not screwing over the American people by being the FIRST to sign up or otherwise, develop some backbone and represent the people who put them in office by saying NO and H--- NO!!!!

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  124. Stop this madness. Look at this source of info. Someones take on the bill both sides have agendas. I'm just trying to figure it out. The Kaiser Family Foundation has a site with the plain facts.

    http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm

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  125. I am a doctor in St. Charles, Missouri and I do not see any reason for my office to become the local DMV, nor do my patients deserve to suffer in this ridiculous way. We see ALL patients that walk through our doors, regardless of financial means or insurance coverage. ALL of the doctors that I know act in this same manner.

    If the government regulates the profession to the point that is proposed, many caring and fantastic doctors will quit, retire or change professions.

    Do your own research. Ask your personal physicians and see what they think about the proposed plan. I think we all know the answer. I only hope that things will not go this way.

    P.S. The "DMV" comment is based on many government run agencies and is exemplified by personal knowledge. My good friend is in private practice in Marseilles, France and has the "DMV" health care card practice. When I hear him speak of his hours and how patient care is administered, I cannot believe how good we have it in America...at least for right now.

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  126. I haven't read every comment there is on this post, howerver the ones I did read are completely missing the big picture and the only thing that should be talked about. We do not need a government health care program period.

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  127. To completely fix healthcare abolish ALL governmant intervetion.
    1) End all governmant healthcare payments.Fewer dollars competing for the same amount of goods always drives prices down.
    2) Let anyone that wants to call himself a doctor be one.Hospitals wanting to cut costs will immediatly begin training nurses to be physicians.The rich can purchase medical care from the doctors with the $300,000 degree with their own money.
    3) Abolish the FDA.Drug companies (or individuals for that mater) can then develop drugs for thousands instead of millions of dollars.Doctors can discuss the risks of newer unproven drugs with thier patients.
    4) Restore freedom of contract to all Americans.I would want to be able to sign a document aggreing not to sue my doctor in exchang for reduced fees.I can then purchase my own malpractice insurance cheaply.(ie dentist pulls wrong tooth, I get $1,000 not $10 million.)

    Contrary to the popular myth freedom is free.It's tyranny that is so expensive.

    To those who have doubts, think of Bill Gates, a college dropout.If he can build the most sophisticated operating system in the world without degrees or truck loads of regulations, there is no doubt in my mind that he can yank a bad appendix.

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  128. This is tyranny and for transparency that Obama said that he would offer it is here on this site. To the President, GOD, I say America has spoken and it is plain and clear no body wants you Healthcare. There are two words that you aren't seeing; "Health" and "Care." Both of which can be found in any Webster's Dictionary and you will see that you don't know the definition of either. I would love to see how you make this transparent and say there is some common good behind this bill, but for lack of time I will just say it can't be done and shouldn't be done.

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  129. Our Healthcare System is not in crisis. Our Government is in Crisis. I believe it is unconstitutional to have Congress vote for my health Care. They do not know me or my health background. I want the opportunity to vote for a health care program in a November election where I, as an individual, can vote yes or no. The economy is in chambles, the unemployment is very high, our Government is in debt up to their ears and they want to take on a big government health care system now? We don't need or want government run health care. We don't need increased spending and higher taxes. Congress and Obama need to use common sense, that is if they have any. Call all the congressman in your state, it doesn't matter what party they are and tell them to vote no, and strongly say I MEAN NO. Tell them to work on illegal immigration reforn. That would save the Goverment and the States lots of money.

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  130. the TV shows are RIPPING this to shreds.

    As much as we Americans hate the insurance companies, we hate politicians more.

    This plan is to wreck one inefficient and costly system with one that is DESTRUCTIVE!

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  131. So what are we going to do about this? Just let it happen? It is all fine and good to write to our senators (which we should all do, just google your state and "senators" and it will pull up who they are and how to contact them) but at the end of the day, we need to get out there and make sure we get the check and balance system back into the Congress. So many democrats have become left wing extremists (liberals) and so many republicans have floated too far left. While I am not for complete right wingers either, we need to put more in, in order to counter balance the liberal/socialist Congress that now rules this country with their extremist President. Elections for senators are on their way. People need to get involved before there is a revolt in this country.

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  132. Yes all the diabolic comments are accurate. This bill should be called, instead of Universal Healthcare, Euthanasia/Healthcare.

    Second, isn't it odd that it's getting almost NO media outrage. The implications of this make Katrina pale by comparison and yet we're only being allowed to hear about the financial consequences. Oh and a little bit, amounting to a hesaidshesaid about the correct interpretation of the bill's language, but not the intent and consequence, will be to private insurance. It'll be a deathknell, but the bill doesn't have to spell that out anymore than the disastrous Medicare Part D donut had to spell out its actual consequences.

    Third, I believe this bill is clearly and intentionally a transformation of our eldercare landscape. It is not only intentional but looks like a ertitable Medicare wet dream of relief for their fears of boatload of boomers' aging needs. The Blues and Medicare have been worrying about supplying care for as they age. Clearly non-worker bees - the disabled, demented, or declared incompetetn people who are labeled no longer of "value" will be give a choice of trememdously reduced care or hospice "comfort care." And insurance plans will be exempt from prosecution because they will be following the law and to do other than offer "comfort care" or vastly reduced procedures would put them "in conflict" with the law of the land. They'll be sympathetic, but "so sorry" they can't offer the services they used to, they don't want to violate the law.

    I think this plan smells like it had input from not only Zeke Emanuel, but alson from Michelle Obama, a saavy former hospital exec. who has been waltzing to survive with wealthy, seductive insurance co's long enough for Michelle to have morphed into their pawn.

    I feel hugely tricked, impotent and horrified and I think I'm going to have to get used to that sensation. The Dem Congress, so eager to please healthcare lobbiests, will hardly help us. by the time we get to vote them retaliatorily out of office, the deed will already be done. And giant Pharma won't lose a penny and healthcare management agencies will not only be spared, they'll be enlarged as they "comply" with becoming the middlemangers, the gatekeepers, helping to supply the "deciders" for the mandates of this bill.

    No , I feel the media NON-Coverage is only a small part of the avenues fo mustering timely, appropriate public outrage that have already been anticipated and "managed."

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  133. I wish I had time to show the flaws in each of these totally biased comments. I don't know what school you went to, but your reading skills are severely challenged.
    As to the "facts" you allege in the bill:
    I don't know what planet you live on, but here, our healthcare is already "rationed" by "bureaucrats" --the work for the interest of profit making insurance companies.
    Government healthcare can't be all that bad, as most older Americans survive Medicare, and the armed forces, veterans, and Senators and Congressmen seem to have pretty good care.
    I suspect you are in the pay of the insurance industry, to be so blatantly in error.

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  134. I checked out some of the most outrageous of these comments on the actual H.R. 3200 Bill and these comments are taken out of context and are incorrect! I would encourag any readers of this document to view http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200: or Google H.R. 3200 and use your brain and come to your own conclusions. Fleckman needs to learn to read "in-context"!

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  135. Isn't it odd that it's getting almost NO media outrage. The implications of this make Katrina pale by comparison and yet we're only being allowed to hear about the financial consequences. Oh, and a little bit, amounting to a "theysaywesay" about the correct interpretation of the bill's language, but not the intent and consequence, It'll be a slow-acting deathknell, but the bill doesn't have to spell that out anymore than the disastrous Medicare Part D donut-hole makers were required to inform us of its actual consequences.

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  136. There is NO-THING democratic about "socialized" medicine.

    The H.R.956 - HealthCARE Act of 2009 bill strips away the freedom of choice (pg 16& 17), desecrates the values that this country was built on, and demoralizes the elderly who have contributed to the system their whole life (pg 425) - only to have it regurgitate on them in the golden years. What an irony...democrats supporting socialist communistic medicine???

    ...And as the crowd roars... "ENSLAVE US PLEASE...OH PLEASE!!!

    In the next breath before they can shout "OH PLEASE" again --- the one world government incinerates them ALL.

    Such IGNORANT & STUPID sheep.

    This is morbid.

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  137. I"LL TELL YOU, IF THE GOVERNMENT PASSES SUCH AN INJUST BILL OF NONSENCE THEY MIGHT AS WELL GO AHEAD AND FLUSH THIS AND WHATS LEFT OF OUR COUNTRY DOWN THE PREVEBIAL TOILET AND BE DONE WITH IT.I REALLY HATE TO SEE THAT OUR LEADERS ARE WASTING THEIR TIME AND OUR TIME WITH SUCH CRAP AS THIS. SOR IN S.C.

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  138. I went through a number of the Fleck points and the comments I have read are pure fiction. This list is intended not to inform honestly but to scare potential supporters. I guess if you can't debate honestly then lie.

    I'd advise anyone with an ounce of curiosity to pick out points that have the most hype value and compare what Fleck says with what is printed in the bill.

    This is all political hype not a true bill of goods. Specifically check 25, 50, 95, 127, 148, 425.

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  139. Has anyone actually verified his comments against the bill? I went through the first nine and they were either wrong, flat out lies, or so "pass the tin foil hat" that it was ridiculous. Health care is a very important issue, and for people to take the above and pass it off as truth without first fact-checking is disingenous and lazy at best. Before spouting off against this bill, check what is being said about it. The garbage above is all inaccurate. LOOK AT THE BILL. I'm not necessarily for this bill or what has been proposed, but neither am I for spreading baseless lies for the sole purpose of inflaming hatred.

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  140. God help us if this is passed in any shape or form.

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  141. I'm with Charles. I'm no fan of OBAMA or of government controlled healthcare, but I also read the text of the bill as referenced, and the comments do not coincide with the bill at all. How do I trust this source any more than the government, if it represents the facts so inacurately?

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  142. The problem with virtually every one of the comments originally posted with reference to particular page numbers, is that they are all either gross distortions of what the bill actually says, willfully blurring the distinction between definitions and supposed mandates, and in several cases out right lies.

    How many of you have actually READ the bill? It easy and straightforward to get through it. You are obliged to read it if you want to make any comments. Don't rely on someone else doing your thinking - do it yourself AFTER you have the facts as contained in the bill.

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  143. Talk abot lies and distortions:

    How many of you have actually READ the bill? It easy and straightforward to get through it.

    LOL

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  144. Health care is VERY important and the proposed legislation must be carefully studied or its full implications and consequences will not be understood until it is too late. So why is the Obama administration in such a rush to get it through before it has been fully analyzed? That is disturbing.

    Why such a lengthy bill? Can we really believe that it has been read and studied by all members of Congress along with the fiscal stimulus package, cap and trade, cash for clunkers, financial regulation, compensation caps, etc.

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  145. Clearly your opinion is being biased by who's paying you. With a site filled with healthcare company logos and ads, what else would I expect to hear but healthcare reform bashing? The healthcare bill isn't perfect, but we have to start somewhere to get things on track.

    As a child I didn't have health insurance because my parents couldn't afford it. As an adult, my husband's job pays less than our daycare expenses, but we need the insurance so he has to keep it. As a small biz owner I can't afford a policy for my company. The system is broken and needs fixing. Stop bashing and start doing something productive to create positive change.

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  146. Well...spiraling cost of health care = spiraling cost of the fattening american + greed of public traded UR companies. Wait untill the fat american youth reach the age of 30....fatty liver disease and Diabetes costs alone will bankrupt any system. Rationing...sure, why not?...try to get a CABG in New Zeland when you are 100 lbs over weight, got DM, smoke and are an alchy. Why should I have to pay for your choice of a malignant life style.

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  147. Your president is the most worthless president in U.S. history. At least I did NOT vote for him

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  148. This is just way to scary. You have people tossing off insults to each other and losing sight of the issue. This is a Mandated Government intrusion into your life style. This is how they will "Protect" us from ourselves. Smoking will be banned, snack foods will be banned, we'll have some fool from some government agency telling us when to exercise and what exercises to do. This is scary. The 49 million uninsured number everyone keeps tossing about is less then ten percent of the population. TEN PERCENT! That means over 90 percent of the US Population has some type of Health Care. People come to US for Health Care. People do not leave the US for Health Care. Get real people and stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Think for yourselves do not just accept everything the media tells you.

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  149. SINGLE PAYER - UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE problem solved..no arguing and everyone is covered...republicans are nothing more than jungle savage, racists and the party is nothing more than a fly on my ass

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  150. I've read all the comments posted on this site and find so much anger against opposing views. This is the basic flaw in our present population. We should put aside our personal biases and consider everyone's right to express their fears and air their opinions. When we allow other points of view, we usually come away with a better understanding of the topic. Something as important as our future handling of health care of the citizens of this great country should be debated long and hard. There should be no predetermined deadline on when it should be voted on and placed into law. I would like to see as many debates on this subject as we had on presidential candidates for our last election. After all, the outcome will be with us much longer than the outcome of any presidential election. What's the hurry?

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  151. A) work on tort reform - if Dr.s did not have to spend outrageous amounts on malpractice insurance and perform repititious and expensive tests to protect themselves costs will come down for everybody.

    2) Fix medicare, medicaid and the VA - when the government is able to efficiently run those programs then I might have just a bit more faith in their ability to be involved in MY healthcare decisions.

    3)I am still unclear as to where the real problem is. I am self-employed I pay for my own health insurance it is not unduly expensive and the coverage is fantastic. But I also know people who do not have health insurance who have received exceptional care in our current system.

    On a personal note, last year my husband suffered seizures in our home, he was transported to our local hospital and was unresponsive and place on full-life support in the ER and tranferred to the intensive care unit. He was in a coma on life support for two weeks. During that entire time, I was not once asked about insurance. He was given every possible test and treatment, multitudes of specialists were called in on his case. Again, not once was I asked about insurance or payment...the entire focus was on saving his life. The care was beyond exceptional and there was never, ever a question of anything not being provided, a test not given or treatment being withheld due to cost concerns and this was for a patient who the doctors fully believed had zero chance of recovery. They were wrong but only in America, only under our current health-care system, only without the government interfering and performing some cost-benefit analysis would his survival have been possible.

    Let's make sure it's really broke before we fix it and just because some government officials says its broke just doesn't mean it is so.

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  152. You all are missing the point... Fleckman might be an important person, personally I don't care. The point is this health care plan is crazy, every inch of it, and you morons are bickering over twitter? I say screw Fleckman's opinion, use your God given ability and form your own opinion.

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  153. The only thing wrong with our system is the way the insurance industry is operating.
    They are guarenteed a profit when the policy prmimum is paid and they are guranteed a profit when they pay a clam. They have no incentive to keep health care afforadable. If clams are near the profit margin then they take their records to the insurance commission for a rate hike to keep their profits up.
    I worked in that trade for years and saw it working this way.
    The insurance loby has our Congress in their pocket.
    We have the finest polititicans money can buy!
    Are you ready with your SIEG HIEL yet?
    Congress is calling our objection to this a right wing extreamist conspericy. They intend to continue doing as they please.
    NEVER VOTE FOR THE INCUMBENT

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  154. I just went through the Healthcare Bill line for line. Fleckstein is grossly wrong in his interpretation of the bill. Hopefully most educated people will investigate these claims by reading the 1000 page+ Bill for themselves. This guy is so far off ...does he think people can't compare his findings with the actual Bill ?

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  155. @Diana Lillicrap

    You write:

    Clearly your opinion is being biased by who's paying you. With a site filled with healthcare company logos and ads, what else would I expect to hear but healthcare reform bashing?

    Those ads are placed by Google Adsense. I have no influence over what they place on my site. Regardless of what I write, Google will place some kind of ads. My guess is the keyword causing the ads to show up are "healthcare" and "isnsurance", which means if I wrote a pro-healthcare plan post, the same type ads would appear.

    Your charge that I am influenced by the healthcare industry, which buys and pays for legislation and which I am completely against, is totally absurd.

    I demand a retraction!

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  156. For those of you who are "educated" and have read and understand the Bill, You obviously have more information than the rest of us. Like definitions of Personal Characteristics, Exchange,SCHIP,RUG,MA, etc. You must also be totally familiar with the content of the documents that are being amended that are not part of the Bill. Like Section 1888 (e)4)E)ii) of Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395yy(e)(4)(E)(ii))and references to Sections of the Internal Revenue Code.

    Using Page numbers as you point to what the Bill says is not useful to those of us who don't have page numbers. Section Numbers work just fine.

    Some of U appear to be very opinionated ,closed minded
    and Party controlled. Can't learn much from U.

    Our country was founded on compromise. But at the same time we are all obligated to understand the issues.

    Most of us do not understand this Bill and are rightfully skeptical.
    We are suspious of the terms and the people who wrote the Bill and their intentions. We also not understand the need to push it through the system so rapidly.

    Remember, it wasn't that long ago that Republicans and Democrats
    agreed that Social Security wasn't broken and didn't need fixing.

    I would love to see a line by line presentation of the Bill on National television over the Congressional recess.

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  157. I agree with the many people who have commented, saying that this list of tweets is completely bogus. Either the original author didn't understand what he was reading, or he intentionally took it out of context to make his hysterical, ideologically-driven points. These have been debunked (each and every one of them) here:

    http://www.reasic.org/2009/08/debunking-health-care-misinformation/

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  158. Hello, all!
    I read the whole thing, copied the links to a pg. to reference, then went to the first page to begin reading, when I was struck with the absurdity of the whole thing. The government's job is to govern, not run. If this is not a power-grab, what is it? Also a huge re-distribution of wealth! I do find it very interesting - and alarming- that there's no discussion! I see H. Clinton's hand behind this, very much, who vowed to push healthcare reform through, somehow...

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  159. #1 if it isn't good enought for the congress and senate - it isn't good enough for you!

    #2 name one government run entity without cost overruns, red tape, long line, and scandals... need I say Post Office, IRS, TSA, and $6000 toilet seats

    #3 If you didn't like your HMO telling you what you can and can't do...just wait

    #4 When people are heading to Canada, Europe, Cuba for basic healthcare then we should consider... but as long as they are coming here... WAKE UP

    #5 If you don't want to be responsible for your own health then forgo your earned income tax credit, and put it towards buying a Medicare Policy... After all you have seen how much people like those government run healthcare programs!

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  160. Two weeks ago I wrote to each of my state and federal representatives as well as the president expressing concern of the healthcare bill. Within two days I received responses from my two state and two federal representatives. No response received from the president. 3 of the four replys were the standard canned "thank you for your interest" responses. Only one, my state senator responded with a email that actually line by line addressed the concerns I expressed in my email. What actual good does it do to write Washington?

    Now is not the time to spend more. The president is trying to do too much, too fast, too soon and has gotten caught up in the rock star image.

    But I can't complain, I voted for him. I did however mention that fact in my email and suggested that prehaps I had not made a wise discision.

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  161. Take a look at http://readthinkgo.blogspot.com/ for a scathing, point-by-point rebuttal of this list of these supposed details about the healthcare plan. Each point has the actual text from the proposed below it, so you can see the truth for yourself.

    Bottom Line: ALMOST ALL THESE POINTS DO NOT ACTUALLY EXIST IN THE PROPOSED BILL!

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  162. Christianity is Dead...Have Faith in Hope and Change...Look to
    Washington for your Salvation...the Government is now your Savior...
    Yeah Right!!!
    What's really scary, there's a lot of people including President Obama who believes this crap!!!

    *One major difference between GOD and President Obama – GOD does not think he’s Obama...
    (*heard that on Rush’s show)

    There’s still Hope, *President Obama does have one thing in common with GOD – neither one have a Birth Certificate!!!

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  163. Practically every point made in the post is simply wrong. I guess the poster has no idea how to read a law proposed by Congress. Before attempting to opine as an expert he needs to do his homework. Maybe a course in stautory construction, or 3 years in law school would help.

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  164. To the poster @ August 12, 2009 2:32 PM: Get real. 1,000 pages of garbage written in code? If they want to pass a bill, write it in something your everyday person can read and understand CLEARLY. Especially since this "code" is written to impact the people in which they represent.

    I'd be willing to bet the author of this garbage's constituents would do no better understanding this then I do.

    Congress needs to get real about how they represent. This follow the leader CRAP needs to stop. I feel like I have no one that I can talk with that cares about ANYTHING.

    More people hate this bill then like it. TRASH IT. Also, 2010 is right around the corner. Get your ballots ready. Senators and Congressman/woman will be looking for a new job soon.

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  165. I heard the Republicans are sending people into meetins to get people to believe lies about health care. It is a simple plan to save money, The insurance co. and Bush's so called drug program is a plan to keep people on welfare.Drug co. are spending Trillions on catering food to Dr's and other health care people every day. Why? so they will write high cost prescriptions and get a % of cost back. why not cut the cost of drugs for patients? Socialisum? why are you accepting Medicare,unemployment,TVA electricty,Copp's.welfare ck's,foodstamps, many other benifits started by FDR in 1930's? Get off your high horse and help OBOMA BRING DOWN THE COST OF YOUR PRESENT iNSURANCE. aS FOR RATIONING BUSHS ADMINSTRATION STARTED LIMITING TEST, ETC.I WAS REFUSED A OVERIAN CANCER TEST BECAUSE I WAS TOO OLD, MY MOM DIED AT 90 WITH OVERIAN CANCER.YOU PEOPLE QUIT BELIEVING THESE SCHEMING REPUBLICANS AND SHOW COMMON SENSE AND WRITE YOUR LEGISLATORS TO VOTE THE PLAN IN. AS FAR AS THE ILLEGALS THEY ARE HERE BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL HIRE THEM. THERE IS LAWS ON THE BOOKS AGAINEST THIS; SO APPLY THE LAW AND AREST THOSE WHO HIRE THEM. YOU ARE PAYING FOR THEIR HEALTHCARE NOW THEY GO TO ER AND GET THEIR CARE, ALSO MEDICAID COULD HELP PAY THEIR REQUIRED HEALTH INS. IT WORKED WITH LIABILITY COVERAGE FOR AUTO'S JUST ASK YOURSELF 'WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?'MANY EMPLOYERS HAVE IN PAST 3-4 YEARS INCREASED CO-PAY AND CUT BENIFITS ON THEIR EMPLOYEES. AT&T IS ONE OUT OF POCKET MONEY HAS TO BE $22,000 BEFORE INS PICKS IT UP. IS THAT YOUR DREAM OF COVERAGE? YOU WANT THE RICH TO GET RICHER AND POOR GET POORER? GO ALONG WITH THIS REPUBLICAN SCHEME TO GET RID OF OBAMA AND PAY YOUR HIGH COST OF HEALTHCARE.AS OBAMA HAS SAID OVER AND OVER, HIS PLAN IS ONLY COMPETITION SO INS PLANS WILL CUT THE PRACTICE OF DOING TEST ETC. JUST TO GET THE MONEY.

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  166. People have lost their marbles. The US is the only industrialized country in the Western world without a public health plan. France, the UK, Spain, Italy, Canada all have been rated by the World Health Organization as having a better Health Care System then the US. The current private-only system helps the rich and sinks the poor. Hospitals will dump their patients who cannot pay their bills on the streets, in nothing but a hospital gown, wandering with open wounds. Poor health care incites crime and violence among those less fortunate. The Obamaphobes have to stop this fear mongering. Read sections of the bill that concern you and ask real questions.

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  167. Thanks this blog post is a great example of a lack of reading comprehension skills. You sir, are truly an idiot.

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  168. I don't want to receive this long, long, long running thread but I don't want to sign up for a Blogger Account... which is ridiculous to require. Anyone have any ideas?

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  169. In case none of you have noticed, the people we have working in our government, making decisions 'for' the people rather than 'by' the people, spend more time INTERPRETING, REWRITING, and READING BETWEEN the lines than actually following the lines themselves. They don't Honor the Constitution, they Interpret it. They Amend it. They blur and bend and ignore The Rules as laid out by our Founding Fathers.

    Those Founding Fathers would not recognize the 'nation' they created. They would cry at how little we value our own freedom, and then they would storm Washington and DEMAND that the government get back in its proper place.

    If any of you have been paying attention, the easiest way to enslave someone is to Convince them that depending on The Person Holding the Stick is For Their Own Benefit.

    How many laws started out with the idea that they were going to be voluntary programs? Then a few years or decades later someone comes along, decides they don't like how one person lives their life by opting not to participate, and then fights to make the participation mandatory?

    It starts out voluntary. They dangle this carrot of free money, free health care, subsidized everything, and it's not until they're hitched to the cart and hauling someone else's load that they realize they've been fooled and enslaved.

    We are a nation of lazy and ignorant fools. Our own school systems are teaching our children WHAT to think, not HOW to think.

    This Obamacare plan is setting us up for the government to be sending their 'trained nurses' into OUR homes to tell mothers how to raise their kids, according to what the government deems acceptable and proper-- and since the government is Anti-God everything you can bet that their ideas of 'acceptable' will not be the same values and moral on which this country was built.

    They claim it is 'voluntary'.

    For how long?

    In ten or fifteen years, will there be another mother who gets offended by the way I choose to raise my children who will become a lobbyist to insist that all children receive the same parenting and discipline?

    ps: perhaps we should clarify first if Obamacare's 'Minimum Benefits/Coverage' packages cover the medical expenses required to remove birdseed from a large expanse of government agent posterior.

    I'll put it down to this-- HMO's have their purpose. It is the member's CHOICE to be a member. My sister was born with extensive medical problems-- the HMO covered her care, no extra out of pocket expense because the coverage was already bought. Under a PPO her expenses would have been upwards of 100-200 THOUSAND and she only lived a year. Under this Obamacare, they could look at her expenses, look at the brain damage that would limit (or void) any 'benefit' she would provide to society, and decide HOW MUCH or *IF* they were going to pay and what treatment she could receive.

    My response to all this: break out the Tea and meet me in Washington (we'll spare Boston this time).

    And if our nation of dumb asses decide to eat the carrot, even though they know the stick is going to whack them and they're going to have to pull the cart--
    the first 'nurse' who shows up on my doorstep trying to tell me if and when I can have kids, and how to raise them, is going to leave with some old-fashioned BUCKSHOT up her backside.

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  170. to read the tweeters just pronounce it the way it is 4-2- ect ie are you 4 this HR3200? i went 2 the store.
    after 11 years in the military, yes a war monger, and almost 15 years at the VA solcialize med has been good for me. NOw this is not so much soc medicine it is CONTROL If you do not do what they say they can cut you off for medical care totally, and you can not do any thing about but start a war. That is a civil war. This is the way that i see it, it does not means that it will come to pass nut in my mind it could. This is not what i like to do but Hitler started out with the idea that all Germans would be taken care of if he was elected, well they was all right.

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  171. I wasn't interested in the first comment about auditing of books, what's wrong with people looking over their shoulder when millions in taxpayer dollars are at stake, but the second one, about a government committee deciding what treatments you receive, did interest me. So I read that section and it DOES NOT say what the writer claims. First, the committee is chaired by the SG and 18 members who are NOT federal employees and 8 members who are Federal Employees. This does not make it a panel of the government. A person who is a Federal Employee is not necessarily from the "Government". Plus, with so much of our money at stake I would WANT my representative to be present. But still, this does not make it a Government panel. And as far as deciding what benefits we receive, again the author choses to portray this as a bad thing. What I read is that this panel of private and Federal employees will make sure that the latest in medical innovations will be covered, and that we will get the best benefits available regardless of what it costs the insurer. How is this bad? If the first two of the couple of dozen comments are wrong then it makes sense that the rest are wrong too. I will continue reviewing this list and the contents of the bill but it is quite obvious that the author has an agenda and it is to cast the bill in as unfavorable terms as possible. He isn't doing you any favors. My suggestion would be to not take his word for it, or the word of your elected officials, but instead go over the bill yourself and decide if it is something you can endorse. The author is a man on a mission and his mission may not synch with your mission. Don't take my word for it, read the bill and decide for yourself. The link I used is to the Library of Congress. If you have a better link, obviously a non-partisan link, I would be happy to receive it. http://bit.ly/N6VqK

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  172. If you are going to point out a section of the bill that you think is worth reviewing then use Section numbers not page numbers. The Section numbers are the same no matter your source, the page number can be much different.

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  173. I agree with the comment about using Section numbers to locate information. Depending on where you got your copy of HB3200, page numbers differ.

    Also, if you are going to spend time giving your analysis, do it in a way that will make sense to an independent voter. Partisan language and tone are great to get the base stirred up. That is already done. We need to present arguments that will stand up for the middle voters. They are the ones who will decide the fate of the particulars. The left will not change. Rachel Maddow will use the worst of the blog comments to show how outrageously partisan this debate is.

    The debate is American, not Democrat or Republican. It is about the U.S. Constitution, its abuse, and the abandonment of the principles on which it was created.

    Throw your "partisan" tone away. Go for "remaking America" in the mold started by our founders. Make the case that "remaking America" Obama-style, is abandoning those principles. This is what will give us long-term hope. If we will see it this way, the Health Care debacle is a gift. It has awakened the average American, made him interested in the principles of Constitutional government that he may have not even paid attention to in school.

    David
    Holualoa Hawaii

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  174. The high cost of health care is a symptom of the real problem that no one is addressing.
    Take a course in medical insurance billing, pay attention and you will see the problem.
    Until the real problem is resolved another insurance boondogle will just make things worse.
    Health care that we can't afford is no health care.
    In response to the person that thinks every one is coming here for health care needs to watch how many people are going to places like India and Russia and getting superior care at 10% the price of here including travel expense.
    Been there and done that and will do it again if I need care again.

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  175. About 90% of your comments are either a misunderstanding on your part, or some attempt to intentionally mislead people. I read your interpretations of the items in the bill, and compared it with what the bill ACTUALLY said and found that you are just plain WRONG about 90% of the time; And the other 10% that you get right is about issues that doesn't matter anyway. I was actually hoping that your interpretation was correct, but now I realize that the bill is not so bad after all. Dig up some REAL problems and quit "spinning"!

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  176. After reading the arguments, article, the bill, and the comments, the most intelligent thing I have read so far was the short statement "truth is our ally." I fact checked only about one in three of this guys tweets, but with a few exceptions they are clearly skewed and do not relay to anyone who hasn't compared the status quo to the bill, just what is going on. White noise and propaganda.

    I support the bill as drafted because we need something to start with and after reading the bill, we will have a few years to fix things before the thing even takes effect, and we will have people working from day one to adapt and modify the bill. People are acting like the government is trying to blindfold them and shoot them in a firing squad when the reality is that people won't take the blindfold of ignorance off themselves and rely on crap like this to do their research for them.

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  177. I am tired of all this noise. Don't get me wrong, we should read the bill and point out the issues. But when pointing out the issue propose an alternative, not just that this bill is bad. We will NEVER get anywhere if people do not come to the table to create the best solution!!

    So quick bitching and help find a solution!

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  178. This is insanity . . . anyone know the location of the next "Tea Party"?? . . . I'm there!!

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  179. As long as you keep voting for the incumbants you will continue getting what you are getting.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    Congress has been laying a lot of pavement!!

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  180. Anyone who reads this bill and finds anything therein that calls for rationing of any sort, or reductions in Medicare or private coverage, is clearly not competent to read the legislation. By that I mean you do not understand how the systems works tofay and how the various components of the bill attempt to modify the systems. If you want any part explained, please let me know. That includes you, Bill.

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  181. I looked at the first 8 claims and then looked at the actual bill. The claims are just wrong.

    I don't know why people make up this garbage, nothing they say here is in the bill, it just distracts us from real stuff in the bill we should worry about.


    > • Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

    Nope! It says "shall study ... group insured and self-insured ... markets." Nowhere does it say "audit" or "all".

    > • Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

    Nope! What it limits here is how much you have to pay every year.

    > • Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and
    > benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals
    > process)

    Nope! What it says is there will be an advisory committee, and recommends but does not decide what things are considered as covered under essential plans, and which things only have to be offered in enhanced and premium plans.

    > • Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health
    > benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

    Nope! It says the commissioner says what are standards, so if somebody offers a plan they says meets the standard, they can be prosecuted if they lie.

    > • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided
    > with free healthcare services.

    Nope! It doesn't say anything about either non-US citizens, nor does it say anything about free health care. This page says things here do not override various federal and state laws; and that they are required to act if there is discrimination, not just pass the buck.

    > • Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

    Nope! It says insurers have to be speedy and may issue a health card, just like the one you already have from your insurer.

    > • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time
    > access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds
    > transfer.

    Nope! It says insurers have to offer to pay doctors electronically.

    > • Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community
    > organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)

    Nope! It says the government has to have a temporary reinsurance program for retirees while the system is changing.

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  182. I've read the healthcare bill and detailed what it actually says at www.FaithfulinPrayer.wordpress.com.

    I've recently added a new page called the healthcare bill index so you can find things more easily.

    I've also include the email mentioned in this post showing the truth.

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  183. Nothing in the bill addresses the problem of over rated and over priced health care. It only addresses the way to force people to send money to the insurance companies.
    I am in Russia at this time and decided to get a medical checkup while we are here. I have had a chest X-ray, blood test for liver function, kidney function, magnetic imaging(MRI) of all internal organs, etc. My total cost will be under $400 including all specialist reading and doctors consultations.
    Our medical system is all about money , not care.
    OH, by the way the equipment here in Russia and the doctors are first rate in any country.
    Bring our prices down and the insurance companies will not be needed!
    My wife is having some dental work done also.
    Three fillings , a root canal, and crown. Total cost $75.
    We do not get any discounts and all medical and dental is private operated.
    Wake up people we are being screwed by the insurance companies and our reps. in Congress don't care.
    The Russian government is working hard to get away from the nightmare of the socialist past, Lets not go to what they are trying to leave in the past.It may take another 50 years for them to recover to where we are now.
    It is an interesting place to visit but we don't want to live here.
    The U.S. a wonderful country, don't throw it away!!!
    The poorest people in the U.S. are wealthy compared to the average people here.

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  184. What is most surprising is that most of you who read this don't fact check the article. After about the first five bullets, the article is lying. I looked at these pages (especially 203) and it doesn't say that...he's lying. This is why we are in such disarray. People will take what is spoon fed them without checking for poison. What page 203 line 14 and 15 really say: (2) require health insurance issuers issuing
    15 health insurance coverage in secondary States to
    16 maintain licensure in every such State;

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  185. @ Angela,
    ...wanna bet?

    "13 ‘‘(4) NOT TREATED AS TAX IMPOSED BY THIS
    14 CHAPTER FOR CERTAIN PURPOSES.—The tax im15
    posed under this section shall not be treated as tax
    16 imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining
    17 the amount of any credit under this chapter or for
    18 purposes of section 55.’’."

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  186. I have HC bill PDF and was checking the claims made in this blog and not one claim checked out to be accurate. This is scare mongerig at the highest and people accepting this are morons and will deserve what they get in the end, i.e. that's another republican administratin. I am a physician and I will be laughing all the way to the laughing. thank a MILLION.

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  187. I stopped reading at the first "ur". Write proper English if you want people to take "u" seriously.

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  188. amazing how Americans will have new Health Care but the Politicians who create it will be able to continue to use the one thhey have been given. 2 seperate worlds!!

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  189. Don't insert the government into marriage? Isn't that just what is happening with banning gay marriage?

    And you don't have to switch to the government program, you can simply keep the one you are on. You cannot pick and choose your passages out of context to make and argument and ignore the bulk of the bill.

    It may not be perfect, but it is a step in the right direction to give much needed aid to the 47 MILLION AMERICANS in need.

    If you truly love your country, you should help everyone in it.

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  190. Forget the purpose of the bill, We know the purpose or what it is intended to do. My concern is this, What low life would think of adding pork to a bill that is intended to make such a difference to everyone. The scary thing is that no one is talking about just how much pork is packed into this bill. Lets not forget President Goofy's promise to VETO every bill that has pork and out the people that added it. What a disappointed he has been. What we need is a good old revolution, although I doubt there are enough real men left in what was a great nation for that to ever come to light. 40 year old men still playing video games.

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  191. Anyone who reads the above things in the bill, can only conclude that our mortal enemies taliban and al-queada, has gained control of the WH and they have a plan soon to be in place they hope, to annialihate the US.

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  192. If there was enough guts in this country left, the WH would be cleaned out, removing every fat cat that voted for this mess and the head honcho comy leader that started all of it.

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  193. Hey, you forgot about the DEATH PANELS! (I'm afraid the disinformation campain isn't going to work.)

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  194. Today is a sad day for the USA that we all know and many of us have fought for. Today we start giving up our liberties and freedoms. After today, you might just as well never go vote again because it is abundantly clear that our elected officials simple ignore the will of their constituents.
    Henceforth, I propose that beginning tomorrow, we no longer call ourselves the United States of America, but begin referring to ourselves as the Union of Socialist States without Rights. (USSR). No doubt, we will suffer the same fate.

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  195. I cannot begin to comprehend what most of the people commenting here are afraid of. The US spends more than 16% of its GDP on health care while most other civilized countries only spend about 10% of GDP. Yet the US has worse health care outcomes than most of those other countries and 50M Americans have no health coverage.

    The only logical conclusion is that under the current system of discriminatory private insurance the US wastes at least a third of its health care budget, if not half, and fails in providing adequate health care to at least a fifth of the population. How can the proposed health care reform be any worse than the abysmal status quo?

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  196. I do not like this health care bill on bit. For one I don't think it is right to let illegal immagrants to get free health insurance, why are they here anyways? I mean people are blaming this all on George Bush but he is not the one bringing up this stupid health care bill. He is setting back and laughing at OBAMA because he has no clue what he is doing. He wants you to think he is from the united states but he is not. Ask others that have tried to get is birth certificate even those who work in the white house from his state that he was supposed to be born at. He is no more from the United States than I am from where I am from. This man is doing nothing but destroying our lives. He is the Devil and thats all there is to this. He got in office making people think he is a good person I knew before everyone put this man in the white house he is not even going to be worth voting for but guess what we got him in there and now how we gonna get him out. He is not going to raise any kind of minimum wage unless he gets money in his pocket. His daughters are smarter than he is, and I think I would take Sarah Palin any day over this man. He knew he would get 60% of his votes because of his race and he did which I am not prejiduce or anything but I don't think that people his color even wants him in the office now because we all know we are doomed because of him. Let me ask what has this man done for us since he has been in office but take our jobs and our money and putting us trillions of dollars in debt and then he thinks this health care plan is going to be a lot better on making more money. Where is this money coming from that we are supposed to pay for this health care when over half the united states is unemployed because of him taking our jobs. He costed me my job from working in the coal mines because he would not pass the bill to get permits to mine and now here I am setting at home now barley able to feed my children let along myself. Ask him what kind of punishment are we going to get if we don't have the money to pay for this health care, and what about these elderly and children what are they going to do when we take them to the emergency room and they refuse to see them because they all are going on strike because they are not getting much money for this new health care. I guess they better start hiring people for part time job to build bigger jail houses because it sure is going to be full because we none are going to have the money to pay for this health care. And for one this man is not putting any chip in my body or my family's body he will not let any doctor touch us if I have to gather me and my kids and move out of this country. Canada has this health care and they don't get the medical attention that people need now days. I guess when you get cancer you will die sooner because you are only allowed to have 5 treatments per health care. I hope you all luck and maybe we can get rid of this bill or this man one way or another!!!!

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  197. "Everyone knows health care is a sham..." Maybe Obama is trying to do something for Bilderburg.
    It might not be simple as it is now. What I believe Obama is doing is LIMITING population - It is what Bilderburg wants!!

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  198. You have just witnessed abuse of power on a scale so grand that this nation is likely to end up bankrupt and ruined. I think everyone believes that healthcare needs to be reformed, but at what cost? What are you willing to part with? Is a false sense of security worth giving up your God-given rights? Is your sense of liberty so easily prostituted? I am a decorated combat veteran who loved his countrymen so much that he was willing to risk his life to defend them. Now, I am ashamed of my government for failing to listen to the people. I've heard it said that if you don't like it here, you should leave so I will just say good-bye. I wish you all the best of luck, in two weeks I become a Costa Rican...

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  199. wow, anonymous dude from Dec. 14, 2009 - You're a physician?? Who is the moron? Your grammer and spelling SUCK! You're probably just another left-wing nazi toadie trying to convince others that you are important and that somehow you're opinion matters! You sat alone at lunch during high school, didn't you? Freak!

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