Ron Paul Gets It Wrong When He Speaks about Secession and CrimeaIt must be emphasized that this is being written after U.S. officials were caught red-handed plotting the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Ukraine that was led by Viktor Yanukovych (SEE: An Important Second Listen to the "F--k the EU" Ukraine Recording).
Former Congressman Ron Paul, whose views are interpreted by many as wholly representative of the libertarian movement, gets it wrong when he speaks of Crimea’s right to secede. Make no mistake about it, Crimea was annexed by Russian military force at gunpoint and its supposedly democratic “referendum” was a farce. Besides a suspiciously high voter turnout without legitimate international observers, the referendum gave Crimeans only two choices — join Russia now or later.
It’s much too simplistic to solely condemn the United States for any kind of geopolitical instability in the world...
In contrast to his father, Senator Rand Paul gets it right by condemning Russian aggression while not subscribing to hawkish calls for military intervention at the same time. It is one thing to not intervene; it is another thing to applaud an autocrat for the sake of blaming our own government.
The correct way to view the Russian actions in Crimea is as a reserved reaction to U.S. encroachment in the region. Without the U.S. meddling in the backyard of Russia, which led to the ouster of Yanukovych, Russian would have never entered Crimea. It did so after the overthrow only to protect the overwhelming numbers of Russian people in the area and to protect its warm water naval port. A port the Russians have legitimate use of based on an agreement ratified in 1999 by the Russian and Ukrainian parliaments, which included a payment to the Ukrainian government of US$526.5 million.
But furthermore, even if the Russian takeover was a naked move of aggression, which it wasn't, why should the U.S.get involved in picking sides in the hostile actions of two countries 5,000 miles from Washington D.C.?
Trade is the way to bring calm to the world, not picking sides between feuding countries.
Wow, I didn't realize we had a 51st state named Crimea and a 52nd named Ukraine. Who gives a rat's @ss about either?
ReplyDeleteWhat part of the USSA not winning a war since WWII are this moronic neocons missing?
Libertarian collectivism is inherently self-contradictory. The title of this article says it all: "Koch-Funded Student Group Attacks Ron Paul" big surprise, that. Leave it to the Liberventionists to see the problem in collectivist terms: whether the "Crimean People" have a right to secede or whether the "Ukrainian People" have a right to prevent them from doing so.
ReplyDeleteThe real question is, do the Koch fan-boys have the authority, moral or legal, to plunder other Americans in order to see their particular "vision" for Crimea forced upon others. Nobody in a supposedly free country ought to be promoting an interventionist foreign policy of any kind, not just because intervention frequently results in blowback and other perverse, unintended consequences, but because the very attempt to "make" foreign policy is an attempt to dictate that the lives, fortunes and sacred honor of dissenting, supposedly equally free, Americans is not only permissible but right. It is an arrogation of authority that does not exists and yet one more injurious abuse of law invites conflict domestically.
Dear "Students for Liberty," if you are so certain that you have the authority to judge the disposition of the Crimea then have the Koch brothers buy you a gun and a plane ticket and go over there and inject yourselves into the middle of the disputes going on in the Crimea. I'm sure that you'll be as welcome there as you are here. The idea that you are "for Liberty" while presuming the outrageous authority to conscript the lives and property of other Americans for your delusions of "world leadership" is a joke.
"USA, USA, USA!".... what idiots.
ReplyDeleteyou read my mind BT
DeleteIts because DC needs enemies, so it needs a giant military who needs to spend big to kept it running and buy new stuff. from suppliers who... well you get the idea.
ReplyDeleteMcCobin might already be angling for a job in that infernal engine.
Yet another case of Stato or one of its tentacles engaged in a coke(Koch?) fueled rage of epidemic irrational lunatic proportions.
ReplyDeleteGood thing they'll forever be in the shadow of DC mainstream think tanks where no one gives a shit if they are masquerading as libertarians or not.
Ron Paul is a brutalist who opposes humanitarian interventions. He must be excommunicated from the Church of libertarianism. It's a popular theme these days. Also, brutalist libertarians are radicals and terrorists.
ReplyDeleteDid you take your meds today? You need to, and then get some sleep..
DeleteLOL. Learn the definition of sarcasm, idiot.
DeleteHilarious that the liberty lovers are defending a Russian dictator. US was involved in Ukraine because Russia is a threat to the United States and Europe.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Ron Paul supporting Russia? Have anything to do with Russia supporting enemies of Israel? Remember Ron Paul and Co pal around with people who deny the Holocaust. In response to a hypothetical question, Ron Paul said he would never have sent US troops into Nazi Germany to save the Jews. How does this all tie into the anti-Fed talk? Remember that G. Edward Griffin's book, The Creature from Jekyll Island, is a little more sanitized than the overtly anti-Semitic version of the late Eustace Mullins, who accused Griffin of plagiarising his book.
How is Ron Paul "supporting" Russia? If you want to accuse Ron Paul of something, call him an "America First"er or something, but at least make an attempt at a reasonable argument.
DeleteIf you are looking to demagogue, this is the wrong place to do it(for the most part. Sure, you'll catch a couple of over emotional flies in your web here, but not like you would in the general populace.
Anyway, it's good to see you revive Cold War Domino theory in your attempt to justify America's intervention. Just when I thought everyone would miss the lesson of Vietnam, maybe you can convince everyone that just like money printing, we haven't done enough yet to make things better.
America, fighting the global war for peace! LMAO!
I'll bet you loved it when Bush the Dumber said "I’ve abandoned free market principles to save the free market system." too.
Re: Jerry Wolfgang,
Delete-- Hilarious that the liberty lovers are defending a Russian dictator. --
I see that your predilection for Ad Hominems continues. When one points out that the US should not meddle in the affairs of other countries as it would make things worse than they are, the warmonger statist counters with the extreme assertion that one must be a traitor of some kind or that one is giving comfort and aid to a perceived enemy.
-- US was involved in Ukraine because Russia is a threat to the United States and Europe. --
So much for Hillary's "Reset."
-- Why is Ron Paul supporting Russia? --
He's not supporting Russia. Supporting Russia means SUPPORTING Russia, not just being against the notion that the US should be involved in every single conflict. You continue to have a problem with semantics.
-- Remember Ron Paul and Co pal around with people who deny the Holocaust. --
Now you went full Godwin sprinkled with guilt by association. What else is there in the list of fallacies?
-- How does this all tie into the anti-Fed talk? --
Ohh, don't tell me! Don't tell me! You're going to argue that it has to do with anti-Semitism and not so much with sound economics! Am I rite or am I rite? Am I rite?
-- Remember that G. Edward Griffin's book, The Creature from Jekyll Island, is a little more sanitized than the overtly anti-Semitic version of the late Eustace Mullins, who accused Griffin of plagiarising [SIC] his book. --
Ah, how quaint! A Red Herring coupled with a Seven-Degrees-Of-Separation Game! It's been time since I've read something that perverted. You seem to be going down the list of logical fallacies, JW! What's next on your list? Fallacy of Composition? Genetic Fallacy? You're a walking encyclopedia of fallacies!
JW: Troll.
Deleteanon@7:11pm
Delete"If you are looking to demagogue, this is the wrong place to do it"
thats jerry WG for you, In the Words of HL Mencken 'a dog barking idiotically through endless nights'.
Hilarious (and telling) that, unlike liberty lovers, who urge us to back no one in this conflict, social democrats like Jerry are coming to the defense of neo-Nazis in Ukraine. Birds of a feather.
Delete@Wenzel, some information for your readers:
ReplyDeleteSTUDENTS FOR LIBERTY has been promoted by Rick Rule ( a hard-money guru, long-time part of Agora "libertarian" network):
http://www.thedailybell.com/exclusive-interviews/4334/Anthony-Wile-Rick-Rule-on-Gold-Silver-and-Why-Junior-Mining-Stocks-Have-Languished/
Check the bottom part of the article where Rule promotes Students for Liberty
http://www.thedailybell.com/exclusive-interviews/2797/Anthony-Wile-Rick-Rule-and-Richard-Maybury-on-Why-More-War-is-Likely-the-Future-of-the-US-Dollar-and-Why-Neither-of-Them-Vote/
Check the part where Rule is interviewed. Promotes Students for Liberty in that section.
So, tell me why Students for Liberty, which is allegedly Koch-funded, is being promoted by libertarians?
Isn't Students for Liberty also promoted by Tucker, allegedly a Rothbardian libertarian?
If the Students for Liberty OFFICIAL, PUBLIC position is interventionist, isn't my diagnosis, in the comment section of the post about brutalism, that Tucker really supports HUMANIST INTERVENTIONISM (aka neo-connism of the left-liberal variety), close to the truth, if not the truth?
Thoughts?
@Wenzel
ReplyDeleteI meant humanitarian interventionism.
Yes, I know that the guy DIDN'T call for outright intervention. But, by ignoring the previous CIA provocation and asking for a public condemnation (you know how these PR stunts go) he is indeed urging a proactive stance of the kind that will provoke further response and THEN lead to intervention.
Hence my previous post...
This distortion by omission (omitting the clear evidence of CIA instigation) is the most frequent and powerful propaganda technique
This distortion by omission (omitting the clear evidence of CIA instigation) is the most frequent and powerful propaganda technique"
DeleteOh you mean like you in your blog post about Iranian,Indian nuclear scientists being assassinated, you "omitted" to mention that Indian scientists are likely offed by the Pakistanis.
But then why bother , everyone knows who is killing the Iranian scientists. And therefore let them put 2 and 2 together and get 44 as per Ron Paulite paranoid logic
BTW LR, you notice this pro free market blog doesn't seem to censor comments. Just wanted to mention in passing...
@ ysv_rao
DeleteMossad has already boasted of offing the Iranian nuclear scientists.
Has already admitted to Stuxnet.
Has already been fingered in LTTE, Sri Lanka, in Mumbai (along with CIA) and many other false-flags.
So, I was trying not to be inflammatory by not stating more than was known for sure.
But sure - if you ask me, I think Israel is most likely behind it.
However, if I did say it, you would scurry around and call me a tin-foil hatter and Nazi because there is no proof yet.
Damned if I do, and damned if I don't.
The conclusion I draw is that you're a troll...which is proved by your showing up with your disinfo about Paul, which you didn't want to spew here.
By the way, I have a troll filter which is triggered by name-calling. If you call-names, you get filtered. If your handle looks like a troll, you can get filtered.
If you post more than a certain number of times, you can trigger a filter.
I wonder which it was for you?
All of the above?
I did see about 3 comments in five minutes go through.
But nice try, anyway.
http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2010/20100328_003_Headley-Saga-Mumbai-attack-was-joint-IB-CIA-Mossad-RSS-project.htm
Deletehttp://mindbodypolitic.com/2014/03/25/mossad-boasted-in-2012-of-killing-iranian-nuclear-scientists/
http://mindbodypolitic.com/2014/01/03/cyberattacks-on-indian-energy-space-systems/
Mossad has already boasted of offing the Iranian nuclear scientists."
DeleteYes, they have. I don't see the problem in this. Do you really want to see the mullahs in possession of a nuke?
Has already admitted to Stuxnet."
Yes and again bravo to them. Now you will claim that aha the Indian blackout was probably caused by a blackout. Ergo ISRAEL!..sorry that type of deduction is very shoddy. Stuxnet could easily be adapted by enemies of India such as China or Pakistan
And don't tell me Indias infrastructure is so solid that we cant create conditions for a blackout of our own making!
"Has already been fingered in LTTE, Sri Lanka, in Mumbai (along with CIA) and many other false-flags."
Who has fingered them in SL,India,26/11 and how? Sorry that milligazette site(wow an Indian Muslim webzine, I am won over by your selection of an objective source)
Good lord, you are an intelligent woman obviously. How can you fall for such drivel except because you CHOOSE to believe their conclusions and reverse engineer your conclusions into what you believe to be facts
I see the author simply repeats his assertion that IB was infiltrated by RSS/Mossad/CIA.
How can you group together a 1000 pound gorilla,a cheetah of intelligence agencies and a glorified boy scouts organization together and accuse them of collusion in a well executed operation so seamlessly in a such a chaotic milieu?
As for the secularist ATF chief Hemant Karkare, his death was due to good old fashioned Indian incompetence and corruption (bad tactics storming in head first, lousy bullet proof vest) than any RSS conspiracy. And the NSA Narayanan was distracted by LTTE matters(which was finished off 6 months later) probably to placate his boss whose husband was offed by them
Once again good old Indian style incompetence and bureaucratic inertia. We don't need foreign conspiracies emanating outside South Asia to f things up
I see a lot of "most likely", "probably", "no proof YET" . I leave objective readers to ponder on this "evidence" you have presented
You will forgive me if I don't peruse your the articles on your blog as evidence for your wild claims. Jeez girl Journalism 101 -objective sources and all that
As for me being a troll. Yes 3 comments went through but those were innocuous ones about Jewish and Indian history not contemporary politics. May I remind you that you approved the comment in question, responded to it and removed it again
What was the name calling there exactly? There were four letter words or anything rhyming with hitch or anything even remotely abusive
And the "disinfo" about Paul that his supporters include a good number of anti semites. Well no one said anything anti Semitic here (so far) so there was no need for me to mention it. I also said on your blog that I believe that Dr Paul himself is NOT an anti Semite
Funny how you neglected to mention that
@ Wendel my apologies for using your blog as p!ssing match. I request to publish this one last comment. I will let her have the last word on this.
Regards
Milligazette is not the source. That's just where it was republished. You can find the original research at dozens of places, made by several different journalists.
DeleteHowever, that would take reading and work.
Just because you would prefer the perps to be Pakistan (because it would be so much better to be junior partner with the War Party here ) it doesn't follow that it is Pakistan, you know.
If you spent half as much time reading as you do writing, you'd get the facts.
DeleteHere, since you don't trust a Pakistani source, try this Sikh guy, who's suggesting Mossad was involved...There was also an Indian and an American journalists, but hey, you're not paying me to do research are you?
http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand291108.htm
Wow? What are you talking about. You have 6 comments published in ten minutes. If something didn't go through, it's probably a filter. If I removed it after it was published, it was because you were trolling about Dr Paul and anti-Semitism.
DeleteWhich is why you came back here to troll to create maximum damage..
I guess hating Muslims isn't anti-Semitic is it?
This is by a Hindu:
http://www.countercurrents.org/misra031208.htm
"Besides a suspiciously high voter turnout without legitimate international observers, the referendum gave Crimeans only two choices..."
ReplyDeleteAnd how is this different from any US vote?
Because the US has low voter turnout?
Deletelol...you asked...
Plenarchist: Crimeans actually had two choices, rather than a single one thinly disguised as two?
DeleteSo much factually wrong with the SFL (sic) analysis it is hard to know where to begin. One honestly wonders whether they are aware that Russia by treaty had the legal right to 25k troops in Crimea. Annexed by Russian military at gunpoint? Where are the pics of that? Where is the evidence of intimidation? Plenty of EU observers, but not a single piece of hard evidence of intimidation or wrongdoing.
DeleteThe writer did not read the referendum, it is obvious. Or is purposely lying. The two choices were petitioning to join the Russian federation or remaining an autonomous part of Ukraine. Do they think we are that stupid that we don't know this basic fact?
Also the percentage who voted for secession is no different than in many recent secession votes, including this week in Venice. Time for NATO to invade the Grand Canal?
These SFL dipshits may be too young to know it, but we adults know what an invasion looks like. It looks like Yugoslavia 15 years ago or Iraq 12 years ago. Not like Crimea without a shot fired.
Students for "liberty"? Stick a fork in them, they are already paid for.
The Libertarian International Organization which has this to say at its activist lead Facebook:
ReplyDelete"Worried about Crimea? Don't be. Always check with the www.libertarianinternational.org first, which is the largest Libertarian network with groups in all countries including some 2000+ LIO Fans in Crimea.
Libertarians and LIO fans in Crimea are actually leading the secession and accession to Russia (clue: lower taxes, will of the people, and freer economy) there while yet condemning the hasty moves by the Russia officials ...while L/libertarians in Russia, the US, Ukraine and Crimea are cautioning against big-power military intervention and supporting bettering Ukrainian federal democracy. "
I think we academics and policy wonks worry about 'positions' and miss the Libbies actually doing something.
I suspect we'll see some more re-alignments of Russian and other populations.
You missed this, "In contrast to his father, Senator Rand Paul gets it right by condemning Russian aggression while not subscribing to hawkish calls for military intervention at the same time. It is one thing to not intervene; it is another thing to applaud an autocrat for the sake of blaming our own government."
DeleteThe author aligned himself with Rand, and then misrepresented Rand's position to make it more palatable. Rand called for intervention, therefore allying oneself with an advocate for intervention, but calling it non-intervention, is pure skilled propaganda. But to get away with it, he needs to first tear down true non-intervention so comparisons can't be made.
That comment went to the wrong place
DeleteI've read a few pieces on this contention and the thing I can't quite get is: Where in McCobin's response to Dr. Paul did he call for intervention? I read the whole thing and he never once said that the US needs to get involved. He says it's right to condemn Russian aggression, but nowhere does he say we need to be involved in this. While Crimea was still part of Ukraine, Russia rolled in their military. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that that's being aggressive against a foreign nation.
ReplyDeleteFor the love of Pete, will people stop being sycophants & bludgeoners and focus on the IDEAS of liberty. F()ck me running.
Y'all are like the Carlin routine: "Do you believe in God?" "Yes." "Do you believe in my God?" "No." "DEAD!".
"Do you believe in liberty?" "Yes" "Do you believe in Ron Paul's view of liberty?" "No." "NEOCON!"
****""Do you believe in liberty?" "Yes" "Do you believe in Ron Paul's view of liberty?" "No." "NEOCON!""****
DeleteExample please. Oh, that's right, you don't have one.
You missed this, "In contrast to his father, Senator Rand Paul gets it right by condemning Russian aggression while not subscribing to hawkish calls for military intervention at the same time. It is one thing to not intervene; it is another thing to applaud an autocrat for the sake of blaming our own government."
DeleteThe author aligned himself with Rand, and then misrepresented Rand's position to make it more palatable. Rand called for intervention, therefore allying oneself with an advocate for intervention, but calling it non-intervention, is pure skilled propaganda (Orwellian). But to get away with it, he needs to first tear down true non-intervention so comparisons can't be made.
You must have also missed his gross misrepresentations of Ron Paul's position, allying him with Putin, that would stir up folks on his blog.
That's a lot of misses. Trolling?
Precisely where has Ron Paul " applauded an autocrat"
Delete@Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIt has nothing to do with Ron Paul's view of liberty. I am not a Paulian..
I already addressed your point earlier in the thread:
Lila RajivaMarch 24, 2014 at 7:48 PM
@Wenzel
I meant humanitarian interventionism.
Yes, I know that the guy DIDN'T call for outright intervention. But, by ignoring the previous CIA provocation and asking for a public condemnation (you know how these PR stunts go) he is indeed urging a proactive stance of the kind that will provoke further response and THEN lead to intervention.
Hence my previous post...
This distortion by omission (omitting the clear evidence of CIA instigation) is the most frequent and powerful propaganda technique
Reply
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-tv-accuses-navalny-cia-contacts-taking-foreign-092549217.html
ReplyDeleteCIA apparently also funding Russian protests
From CounterPsyops, 2011:
ReplyDeletehttp://counterpsyops.com/2011/12/25/ciasoros-funneling-money-through-georgia-to-russian-protesters-2/
CIA trying to destabilize Russia
The money from USAID for Russian dissidents is being funneled through the Georgian Ministry of Education. The Georgian Minister of Education Dmitry Shashkin also attended the Tbilisi ceremony, which provided cover for the covert aid program to the Russian dissidents. Georgia has become the nexus for the U.S. aid to the Russian opposition trying to unseat Putin. In March, Georgia sponsored, with CIA, Soros, and MI-6 funds, a conference titled “Hidden Nations, Enduring Crimes: The Circassians and the People of the North Caucasus Between Past and Future.” Georgia and its CIA, Soros, and British intelligence allies are funneling cash and other support for secessionism by ethnic minorities in Russia, including Circassians, Chechens, Ingushetians, Balkars, Kabardins, Abaza, Tatars, Talysh, and Kumyks.
The EU is also funneling money on behalf of European intelligence services, including MI-6, to Russian dissident groups through grants to Georgian non-governmental organizations. The money flows through the EU’s Commission for Enlargement and European Neighborhood Policy, the chief of which is Stefan Fule, a Czech diplomat who served as Czech ambassador to London and NATO and who attended Moscow State University of International Relations during the Soviet era and established a number of contacts who are now active in the present-day anti-Putin movement
@Wenzel et al.,
ReplyDeleteSomething interesting for you to consider. This troll, ysv_rao, who posted earlier on this thread, was also on my blog before that, at first pleasant, then attacking, and finally getting personal. He was also going on about Ron Paul being an anti-Semite. He's never been on my blog before and when I checked his blog, it only began in February, like those two other commenters I suspected of being fakes
.
I did some research and found that in December, he was harassing another female blogger, Layla Anwar, who runs a blog about Iraq that's very well regarded.
He spewed a lot of vulgar threats at her, but she had some connections and found out his name and details. It turns out he is an India in Saudi Arabia in cyber-security and defense. She filed a complaint to the Saudi government. (!!)
I don't know what happened. He was quoting neocons like Kaplan and seemed very pro-war.
I don't know if there's a connection between his sudden surfacing on the net to troll at two antiwar blogs and the appearance of these pro-PC, pro-Rand, pro-meddling libertarian--liberals....
But if you're interested, here's the link to Anwar's blog where she unmasks the guy:
http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/2013/12/another-one-bites-dust.html